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joey48442
joey48442 SuperDork
7/1/09 10:22 p.m.

That the same group who botched a whale hunt and the whale ended up lingering around for hours? Yeah, I don't give a E36 M3 about your culture if you can't kill something swiftly, you shouldn't be killing. I don't mind responsible hunting. I don't mind if your culture failed and you have to go hunt a whale to help you avoid being an alcoholic. What I do care about is when your failure causes something else to suffer.

Joey

ae86andkp61 wrote: I've only watched part of a few episodes and have to agree with most in that it seems like a worthy cause with terrible execution. The first I had heard of these nutjobs was when I read a book about the Makah whaling up here in Washington. A Native American tribe literally at the end of a long road to nowhere (waaaay out on the end of the Olympic Peninsula) had a community which had long suffered in modern American society (alcoholism, violence, disease, unemployment, depression, etc.) A few people there woke the Reservation up by reviving their traditional whale hunt, and that in turn brought a resurgence of interest in the old language, canoe carving, old dances and songs, etc. They had a huge uphill battle just to relearn how to get in the water, not to mention that it took a long time of trying before they had a realistic chance at bagging a whale. We are talking about a half dozen guys on the open ocean in a canoe, in 50-degree water, trying to outpaddle a whale, harpoon it when it surfaces, and then hang on for long enough to quickly kill it with a high-powered rifle (a modern concession due to concerns about animal cruelty) and the Sea Shepards harassed them and tried their best to undermine the whalers the entire way! The tribe is legally allowed something like five whales a year, but to date they have only killed one or two! I just can't support someone who is so principled about an issue that he is completely blind to any context or external circumstances. The world isn't so completely black an white that we have to strip a disadvantaged community of their traditional culture (and a strong positive force in their lives) for the sake of one whale. Not to mention that his ship probably burned more fossil fuel and produced more pollution than I will in my entire life trying to save that one whale (and failing, at that.)
RealMiniDriver
RealMiniDriver Dork
7/1/09 10:53 p.m.

I got to thinking, when I saw them throw the acid that "spoils" the whale they were pulling on deck. So, after the Japanse chuck the spoiled whale overboard, aren't they just going to hunt down another, thereby killing twice as many whales?

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 Reader
7/2/09 6:44 p.m.
joey48442 wrote: That the same group who botched a whale hunt and the whale ended up lingering around for hours?

Yes and no. There was a legal (and successful) hunt conducted by the tribe about ten years ago, and protested with threats of violence by the Sea Shepards. The whale was caught and harpooned by the whalers in a canoe, and then killed quickly by a vet with a rifle from a nearby powerboat. My understanding is that the hunt had fairly broad support from many of the members of the tribe and the support of the Tribal Council.

A couple years ago a few members of the tribe illegally shot a whale but didn't kill it. The Coast Guard seized the whale and tried to tow it out to sea and it eventually died. As far as I know, they did not have the support of the Tribal Council, and were sentenced to some sort of punishment.

I guess what I take from it is that Japanese whaling for supposed "research" probably isn't the best thing. Makah whaling has a minimal impact on the species but a big impact on the tribe, and probably isn't the worst thing. One is worth protesting, but I am not sure that both are worth protesting, and I don't think violence and inept confrontations and threats are the best way to do it.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/4/09 8:59 a.m.

I watched a bit last night. My impression:

I hope a swarm of angry stingrays jumps onto the boat and stabs each of them through the heart.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair Dork
7/5/09 4:34 p.m.
fromeast2west wrote: Green Peace wouldn't take direct action against the whalers, so Paul formed a more militant group. They have been credited / blamed for sinking whaling boats in harbors (no people hurt).

I'm sure they had the boat properly evacuated of all toxic fuels / oils / etc before sinking it, thereby protecting the aquatic life in the harbor area.

i had forgotten about my hatred for activists. thanks for reminding me.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
7/5/09 6:18 p.m.

So whales are big so if they die its tragic? Just trying to get this straight.

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago HalfDork
7/6/09 1:30 a.m.

Whales are charismatic megafauna so people care about them more and some species were facing extinction during the heyday of commercial whaling.

joey48442
joey48442 SuperDork
7/6/09 7:52 a.m.
MrJoshua wrote: So whales are big so if they die its tragic? Just trying to get this straight.

no, it's their rarity that makes it tragic. An ivory billed woodpecker dieing is, to me, just as tragic. Poachers are the lowest level of people, in my way of thinking. Maybe second only to pedophiles. While the people on board the steve irwin seem to be a bunch of idiot hippies, at least they are trying to make things better. It is strange, but almost as a rule my republican friends love the concept of vigilantism, but this always makes them mad. I don't get that. Maybe it's because animals are harmed, and republicans are "supposed" to hate animals, and liberal-bunny hugging-democrats are supposed to love them?

Joey

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
7/6/09 7:59 a.m.

Misplaced vigilantism is always stupid. People shooting abortion doctors is stupid as is sinking whaling vessels.

joey48442
joey48442 SuperDork
7/6/09 8:23 a.m.
MrJoshua wrote: Misplaced vigilantism is always stupid. People shooting abortion doctors is stupid as is sinking whaling vessels.

No, that is different. That is worse. If you said that its like burning down an abortion clinic, with no one inside, then you could make the comparison. But killing the doctor is different.

Joey

pinchvalve
pinchvalve SuperDork
7/6/09 5:54 p.m.

I'll avoid the pro/con of whaling, but as for inept...did you see them try to launch a Zodiac hanging from a crane at speed in pitching seas? The Navy Seals would not try that maneuver. They almost lost everyone in the boat and a few on the deck. Inept is being kind.

SamsonCooper
SamsonCooper
7/17/10 3:57 p.m.

I am against the whaling as well, but these buffoons have no business being in the ocean on a boat. Paul Watson doesnt belong captaining a canoe. He arrogantly stated in an early season that the reason he wanted volunteers is that he wants people that are motivated to save the whales. What he doesnt seem to realize is that these people have NO training on boats.... Hire a few key people to ensure these trips are SAFE.

Secondly, dont complain when the Japanese defend themselves. Again i will state i think the whaling is horrible... But boarding another ship on the high seas IS PIRACY!!! Expect to get shot. Whining about them retaliating makes you look like such an idiot... You try to prop foul them all the time... Dont complain when they do it back to you.

Im glad noone on the Ady Gil got seriously hurt. But i dont blame them for running over that boat at all. That boat is out attempting to seriously incapacitate their ships... They should be able to defend themselves from Pirates.

4eyes
4eyes HalfDork
7/17/10 4:32 p.m.

So poachers should have a right to defend themselves from pirates. International law should be upheld, and all of them should be in prison and their boats sold at auction.

JoeyM
JoeyM HalfDork
7/17/10 5:31 p.m.
Jensenman wrote:
RossD wrote: I completely agree with P71. All I see in that show is an old crazy guy leading a bunch of college hippies that havent completely burned through their trust funds yet and have no concept of what real life is and what it takes to have a job and a place to live. I feel bad for Steve Erwins relatives for having his name on their boat.
That's pretty much the kind of people you get with any of the eco groups.

That's very true, and it reminds me of a quote from Neal Stephenson's book Zodiac about a fictional group of environmentalists named G.E.E. (Group of Environmental Extremists.) The protagonist is the GEE chemist, and he says this about the other group members:

Fortunately, I'd taken all the keys to the Omni, other than my own, and hammered them into slag. And whenever I parked it, I opened the hood and yanked out the coil wire and put it in my pocket. You might think that the lack of a coil wire or even keys would not stop members of the GEE strick force, Masters of Stealth, Scourge of Industry, from starting a car for very long. Aren't these the people who staged their own invasion of the Soviet Union? Didn't they sneak a supposedly disabled, heavily guarded ship out of Amsterdam? Don't they skim across the ocean in high-powered Zodiacs held together with bubble gum and bobby pins, coming to the rescue of innocent marine mammals? Well, sometimes they do, but only a handful have those types of talents, and I'm the only one in the Northeast office. The others, like Wyman, tend to be ex-English majors who afffect hysterical helplessness in the face of things with moving parts. Talk to them about cams or gaskets and they'll sing you a protest song. To them, yanking out the Omni's coil wire was black magic."
novaderrik
novaderrik Reader
7/17/10 5:43 p.m.

i've been watching that stupid show all season just waiting for the funny looking speed boat to get hit. in the lead up episodes, i really started to personally hate everyone involved with the Sea Shepherds. the head dude is an idiot. the people under him are idealistic idiots- especially the skinny kid with the big head that is the second in command of the second ship and the bald Australian guy that built the speed boat.

they showed interviews with a few of them where they said that they can do whatever they need to do simply because it's right and they want it bad enough.

when the boat got hit, the looks on their faces told me that they just learned a valuable lesson about life- things will not go your way just because you want it badly enough and E36 M3 happens.

the "coming next week" scenes at the end of the episode made it look like they are going to try to board one of the whaling ships so they can get their asses handed to them in an efficient manner by the highly trained and very motivated crew of the Japanese ship. i may or may not watch it next week- i haven't decided if i want to invest any more time in that show after the awesomeness of the ship getting rammed and everything going to hell for them.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/17/10 5:44 p.m.
SamsonCooper wrote: I am against the whaling as well, but these buffoons have no business being in the ocean on a boat. Paul Watson doesnt belong captaining a canoe. He arrogantly stated in an early season that the reason he wanted volunteers is that he wants people that are motivated to save the whales. What he doesnt seem to realize is that these people have NO training on boats.... Hire a few key people to ensure these trips are SAFE. Secondly, dont complain when the Japanese defend themselves. Again i will state i think the whaling is horrible... But boarding another ship on the high seas IS PIRACY!!! Expect to get shot. Whining about them retaliating makes you look like such an idiot... You try to prop foul them all the time... Dont complain when they do it back to you. Im glad noone on the Ady Gil got seriously hurt. But i dont blame them for running over that boat at all. That boat is out attempting to seriously incapacitate their ships... They should be able to defend themselves from Pirates.

Reasons why this is awesome:

  1. Reviving a thread that's been dead for a year, and none of the immediate responders noticing, presumably because it's almost a year old to the day.

  2. Use of the word "canoe"....in your first post.

Kudos.

SamsonCooper
SamsonCooper New Reader
7/17/10 6:57 p.m.

I didnt actually look at the date haha. This post just came up because i was looking at something else related to the episode from last night.

And yeah, Paul Watson isnt fit to Captain a "canoe".

92dxman
92dxman HalfDork
7/17/10 7:40 p.m.

I'm not going to get into the argument of good or bad execution but the Ady Gil boat that got hit could sure pass for the bat boat..

Appleseed
Appleseed SuperDork
7/18/10 1:49 a.m.

Hey Poopy, what's this dude trying to sell me?

JeepinMatt
JeepinMatt Dork
7/18/10 2:40 a.m.
wearymicrobe wrote: I don't understand, throwing stink bottles and oil on a deck is not eco-terrorism.

No, but throwing acid on people, ramming into ships and sinking them most certainly is terrorism. I know that the acid is supposed to ruin the whale carcass, but they have caused people to suffer burns from the stuff. And it's flammable. Shouldn't throw flammable stuff on a ship. Or anywhere, really.

JeepinMatt
JeepinMatt Dork
7/18/10 2:47 a.m.
joey48442 wrote: While the people on board the steve irwin seem to be a bunch of idiot hippies, at least they are trying to make things better.

That same "the ends justifies the means" can be applied to almost any terrorist or villain in history. The Taliban believe they are trying to make things better. But look at how they're going about it. If you can't tell, I'm absolutely not an ends-justifies-the-means person.

Duke
Duke SuperDork
7/18/10 8:20 a.m.
RealMiniDriver wrote: I got to thinking, when I saw them throw the acid that "spoils" the whale they were pulling on deck. So, after the Japanse chuck the spoiled whale overboard, aren't they just going to hunt down another, thereby killing twice as many whales?

[Yes, thanks to Mr. Shovel, I know this is a year old.]

That's the exact thought process that seems to escape the idiots who knock down half-built McMansions and vandalize Hummers.

"Hrm, let's see, there must be 10 or 12 acres of lumber out there in those evil, greed-driven developer houses. If we knock them all over, that means they'll need another 10 or 12 acres' worth of trees to rebuild them! Not to mention all the fossil fuels and energy costs of removing the debris and reconstructing them! Let's do it for Mother Earth!"

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/18/10 9:37 a.m.
Appleseed wrote: Hey Poopy, what's this dude trying to sell me?

Acid-proof batman style canoes? Thoughts since getting sucked into this dumbass show for a couple episodes again a couple weeks ago:

  1. I wonder how many thousands of gallons of fuel they burn up on one trip, and if there's a measurable effect on the environment over time.

  2. I agree with the "broken window" / "developer" analogies posted earlier. "Spoiling" a whale is only going to cause the whalers to go find another one.

  3. Bob freakin Barker paid how many millions for them to buy some busted ass used ship? I'm all about people spending their own money on what_ever_the _berkeley they see fit, but wouldn't a few million go a long way toward lobbying to get some kind of legitimate action to stop the whaling? Oh wait. I guess that doesn't allow captain kenny rogers to slurp coffee and pretend he's some kind of berkeleying super hero for the rest of his pathetic life.

  4. Pretty sure South Park already repeatedly hit the nail on the head with a 20 lb. sledge between the original post and this one. Maybe we should all just go "Uh, yeah, they got it right."

TJ
TJ SuperDork
7/18/10 1:51 p.m.

Sea Menace would be a better name than Sea Sheppard. The ocean is always out to get you and is no place for their inept and sophomoric effort to save the whales. I understand their frustration and feeling the need to do something, but I don't think they have any clue of the danger they put themselves in by being out there and operating in the manner they do.

TJ
TJ SuperDork
7/18/10 1:52 p.m.

Sea Buffoons would even be better than Sea Menace.

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