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ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
7/23/21 12:23 p.m.
dean1484 said:

They will be greatly disappointed when their first job out of school will be designing a concrete dumpster pad for an inner city housing project.  

 

EDIT:  And yes I have done this!!!

A dumpster pad may actually have more real-world usefulness than some wonder of modern designgineering with a leaky roof.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:25 p.m.
nocones said:

I have noticed (Obviously anecdotally) a general improvement of  the problem solving skills and desire to learn of younger people I've worked with in the last 10 years.   It seems with the open availability of 3d printing, 3d modeling, and programing the ability to ideate and solve problems in creative ways is improving.  

Saying that the 3 worst first job Engineers I've ever experienced had the best resume's / coverletters that made them seem like Rockstars.  They interviewed really well and gave the impression that they were solution focused individuals that could come in and contribute despite their low experience.  Once in the role it was obvious that they were not capable of critical thinking nor self motivated.   All they could do was self market and had learned to be adept at overselling their contributions to any projects they had been a part of.  

As a company owner this is your worst nightmare.   You know the old saying about things that appear to be to good to be true.  

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:27 p.m.
ShawnG said:
dean1484 said:

They will be greatly disappointed when their first job out of school will be designing a concrete dumpster pad for an inner city housing project.  

 

EDIT:  And yes I have done this!!!

A dumpster pad may actually have more real-world usefulness than some wonder of modern designgineering with a leaky roof.

LOL My company has a whole division dedicated to roofing and building envelope.  Those bad decisions keep me in business  :-)

nocones
nocones UberDork
7/23/21 12:29 p.m.
dean1484 said:
sobe_death said:

 they have never generated plans, they usually don't know professional codes or industry standards, 

I guess what I am saying is there is a certain set of baseline skills that every job needs and in the Design / Architecture field it seems that these have been forgotten by the edguication system.

What has your Architectural industry group done about this?  How are you as a group of Architecture firms providing feedback to the university system on the gaps you are seeing between Education system output and the Needs of an Architectural firm?  I know in Mechanical Engineering there are several well supported industry groups that provide outreach and work directly with universities to assist with curriculum. 

More directly could you personally directly provide a seminar working with a local university to provide feedback to Architecture students?    I would routinely attend seminars and presentations from industry and local representatives simply coming on campus to assist in giving back their knowledge and experience to the next generation.  

Having a BSME from a Big 10 school I know that the curriculums of the universities ar varied with different focuses.  Some B10 schools do a better job of preparing practical students ready for the field vs a research focused on preparing students for the Lab and a MS/PHD path with Grants.  My school was predominately focused on theoretical knowledge and more of the research focus.  That said we have STRONG on campus representation from the Automotive Tier 1 / Manufactures as well as Caterpillar and many Aerospace firms that force the University to provide more functional education either directly through curriculum or through sponsored extra curricular activities.  

Has architecture created a equivalent to the FSAE/Baja/Solar Car competitions?  I'm aware of some LEED / net zero / sustainable building activities on our local Campus but they don't seem to be nation wide challenges.  If something does exist does Deanco lean into those?

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:31 p.m.
WonkoTheSane said:
dean1484 said:

ALSO Consider that company are in business to make money and get work done.  Yes there is some teaching / learning by employees.  No one should stop learning.  But. .. .  would / should GRM higher a Jr. editor that needs to learn critical righting, grammar and English skills?  Should GRM be expected to teach these skills?

Well played :) 

Honest question (since I haven't visited your website), is there a section that details exactly what jobs you're hiring for and responsibilities, or are these kids just being told by a school guidance councilor to "go apply to Dean's company?"  Do you know?

 

This is a topic that fascinates me, and I'm hoping to be in a similar position of attracting & hiring people soon...

No I don't have a specific page. We did years ago and we would get hundreds of applications per month to the point it was crashing the email server and we just could not look at them all. Because of that I realized I was wasting the applicants time so we pulled it down.   

I am assuming that we are on a list some place with several of the local colleges telling kids to apply to us.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:33 p.m.

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

Oh and Ya I can not spell my way out of a dictionary.  My secretary has job security.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
7/23/21 12:38 p.m.

BEAUTY!

May I PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE quote your initial post in my high school Architectural Drafting course?

The public school system tries to foster pie-in-the-sky dreamworld, but I (blacklisted by the University as an old-school curmudgeon) push employability skills and doing a good job and getting it done and making money for the company.

Having more than just "old man Wellwood" telling it like it is would be good.

If 'n you want, my course content is HERE.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:39 p.m.
nocones said:
dean1484 said:
sobe_death said:

 they have never generated plans, they usually don't know professional codes or industry standards, 

I guess what I am saying is there is a certain set of baseline skills that every job needs and in the Design / Architecture field it seems that these have been forgotten by the edguication system.

What has your Architectural industry group done about this?  How are you as a group of Architecture firms providing feedback to the university system on the gaps you are seeing between Education system output and the Needs of an Architectural firm?  I know in Mechanical Engineering there are several well supported industry groups that provide outreach and work directly with universities to assist with curriculum. 

More directly could you personally directly provide a seminar working with a local university to provide feedback to Architecture students?    I would routinely attend seminars and presentations from industry and local representatives simply coming on campus to assist in giving back their knowledge and experience to the next generation.  

Having a BSME from a Big 10 school I know that the curriculums of the universities ar varied with different focuses.  Some B10 schools do a better job of preparing practical students ready for the field vs a research focused on preparing students for the Lab and a MS/PHD path with Grants.  My school was predominately focused on theoretical knowledge and more of the research focus.  That said we have STRONG on campus representation from the Automotive Tier 1 / Manufactures as well as Caterpillar and many Aerospace firms that force the University to provide more functional education either directly through curriculum or through sponsored extra curricular activities.  

Don't get me started with the AIA.  I am not a member.  I have found them to be a condescending bunch (I am sure there are some good people in there some where).  General they are more concerned about promoting the feel good things of the moment than mentoring the next generation.   Yes this is a huge problem. No I am not going to try and correct the problem because if you go against the grane with them it will hurt my buisness.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
7/23/21 12:41 p.m.
dean1484 said:
Mr_Asa said:
dean1484 said:

Valid point but they have gone so far off the rails and so far away from what a designer/architect does, it is just silly.  No, I am not advertising. but again look at the company website and you can get a clue about a company and its focus.   I am not asking that you learn every project we have done but are we commercial, residential, public sector, medical, housing, elderly care, tech, historical, historical restoration, All easily knowable from virtually every company website.

I'm currently applying to jobs.  I can't look up websites to research companies to find out what they do.  Everything posted is under some sort of job placement program so when I send my resume in they then forward it on to the actual company.  Sometimes I get lucky and find the company on a google search, but I only do a google search when I really really like what the description reads as, then I try to submit directly to the company.

I'm putting in dozens of applications a day, I don't have time to research every company.  I pull up the ad, I modify my resume and cover letter as required, throw in some of the buzzwords I see in the ad, then I move on.  

I repeat, hiring is brutal from the applicants side.

And this may be part of the problem.  I call it the shotgun approach.   I am not saying it is wrong as it is what you have to do in the current market.  But just using the buzzwords from an add and not giving something that makes you stand out is about what an AI program would do if it was tasked with this. 

Your statement that you are putting dozens in per day is also a problem.  You may want to examine this and re balance quality versus quantity.   Are you by chance an architect?  ;-)

My problem is that my only pure engineering job I've had was two years and change due to COVID.  The rest of my job experience is... berkeley, its everything mechanical related so I am simultaneously qualified and unqualified for just about every position I apply for.  Shotgun applying is just the most effective way cause I need something. Once I am working I can be more judicious with my applications 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:43 p.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

BEAUTY!

May I PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE quote your initial post in my high school Architectural Drafting course?

The public school system tries to foster pie-in-the-sky dreamworld, but I (blacklisted by the University as an old-school curmudgeon) push employability skills and doing a good job and getting it done and making money for the company.

Having more than just "old man Wellwood" telling it like it is would be good.

If 'n you want, my course content is HERE.

Go right ahead.  I don't have a problem with it.

If it matters (and it sounds like it may to these people) I am President and owner of a Design Firm.  I can PM you my company if you want. I will not post it up here as I don't think it is appropriate to do so.  

travellering
travellering HalfDork
7/23/21 12:45 p.m.

Higher =/=  hire

Granger =/= grandeur

 

I don't know you or your company, but if you wrote all the copy on your company site yourself, you may be throwing stones from a glass house...

 

Maybe you might benefit from starting your own internship program with nearby design schools.  You may get pick of the litter before they are weaned and cast out into the cold world outside academia, and even if you don't, you should at least get more of an insight into how the schools are preparing their students..

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/23/21 12:46 p.m.

Sounds like that cover letter may have been written by a student who was used to writing to please liberal arts professors. They'll probably learn nobody talks like this in the real world after a few months on the job.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
7/23/21 12:53 p.m.

I agree that the kids are hitting you with bird-shot.  Spray some everywhere and hope something hits.  Since so many are doing it, I see a systematic problem where the school is leading them to this or at least not discouraging them from it.  

So, turn the tables.  

Build some sort of standardized test to send back to them.  As an example, you might reply with something like...  

  • Thanks for your interest in our firm.  Here is a sample of the type of work you can expect from us in the early years of your employment, please design this concrete dumpster pad for this inner city housing project.  Your budget is $XXX and should be such that the on-site work can be completed in 2 days.  Please send your completed work to  topbrass@thefirm.com

Now, they have a real task with little direction and little option for hand holding.  Many might never really reply.  The real test may have less to do with what they submit and more to do with if they submit at all.   

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 12:58 p.m.
travellering said:

Higher =/=  hire

Granger =/= grandeur

 

I don't know you or your company, but if you wrote all the copy on your company site yourself, you may be throwing stones from a glass house...

 

Maybe you might benefit from starting your own internship program with nearby design schools.  You may get pick of the litter before they are weaned and cast out into the cold world outside academia, and even if you don't, you should at least get more of an insight into how the schools are preparing their students..

All proofed by some one.  You really think I am that stupid?  I have my reasons for not being good at grammar and spelling but I try and I own it when I screw up.   Oh and then there is auto correct.  If you dont know it is wrong and autocorect is telling you to correct it do you do it?  Autocorect is a dyslexics best friend and worst nightmare all wrapped in to one.  

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 1:06 p.m.
John Welsh said:

I agree that the kids are hitting you with bird-shot.  Spray some everywhere and hope something hits.  Since so many are doing it, I see a systematic problem where the school is leading them to this or at least not discouraging them from it.  

So, turn the tables.  

Build some sort of standardized test to send back to them.  As an example, you might reply with something like...  

  • Thanks for your interest in our firm.  Here is a sample of the type of work you can expect from us in the early years of your employment, please design this concrete dumpster pad for this inner city housing project.  Your budget is $XXX and should be such that the on-site work can be completed in 2 days.  Please send your completed work to  topbrass@thefirm.com

Now, they have a real task with little direction and little option for hand holding.  Many might never really reply.  The real test may have less to do with what they submit and more to do with if they submit at all.   

 

You know that is a really good idea.   Maybe toss in a couple basic code questions like briefly describe what you need to do for a change of use and occupancy of a property.  Or even simpler what is a use-group?

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 1:11 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
dean1484 said:
Mr_Asa said:
dean1484 said:

Valid point but they have gone so far off the rails and so far away from what a designer/architect does, it is just silly.  No, I am not advertising. but again look at the company website and you can get a clue about a company and its focus.   I am not asking that you learn every project we have done but are we commercial, residential, public sector, medical, housing, elderly care, tech, historical, historical restoration, All easily knowable from virtually every company website.

I'm currently applying to jobs.  I can't look up websites to research companies to find out what they do.  Everything posted is under some sort of job placement program so when I send my resume in they then forward it on to the actual company.  Sometimes I get lucky and find the company on a google search, but I only do a google search when I really really like what the description reads as, then I try to submit directly to the company.

I'm putting in dozens of applications a day, I don't have time to research every company.  I pull up the ad, I modify my resume and cover letter as required, throw in some of the buzzwords I see in the ad, then I move on.  

I repeat, hiring is brutal from the applicants side.

And this may be part of the problem.  I call it the shotgun approach.   I am not saying it is wrong as it is what you have to do in the current market.  But just using the buzzwords from an add and not giving something that makes you stand out is about what an AI program would do if it was tasked with this. 

Your statement that you are putting dozens in per day is also a problem.  You may want to examine this and re balance quality versus quantity.   Are you by chance an architect?  ;-)

My problem is that my only pure engineering job I've had was two years and change due to COVID.  The rest of my job experience is... berkeley, its everything mechanical related so I am simultaneously qualified and unqualified for just about every position I apply for.  Shotgun applying is just the most effective way cause I need something. Once I am working I can be more judicious with my applications 

Don't know where you are located but if you have structural/civil experience my friend owns a Engineering firm that is up to there eyeballs in work and needs help.

travellering
travellering HalfDork
7/23/21 1:12 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

As stated, I don't know you.  I just know you have good taste in websites... Internet goes by the same rules as Driver's Ed.  You start from the assumption that the other person is not just stupid, but maliciously so.  Pessimism is far more often rewarded with pleasant surprises than optimism.

Every school I ever attended had job placement percentage as a performance metric.  If you think your design firm is on the radar of a few local schools, spend some time on the phone or in person with their graduate placement office.    You should improve your odds of being sent applicants with their feet more grounded than the author of that cover letter, and you may be able to help them out in guiding other graduates to be more employable.

Shadeux
Shadeux Dork
7/23/21 1:17 p.m.

I graduated with a masters in architecture in 1995. In those six years I received no relevant training that actually applied to working in the field of architecture. I had to learn all of that on the job.

It sounds like not much has changed. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
7/23/21 1:22 p.m.

Out of curiosity- at what point does the headcount issue mean that you HAVE to engage one of these applications?

Interesting that cover letters are such a turn off- when I was doing some recruiting, all I saw were resumes.  And we saw so many that there was a pretty standard way to filter them out for a pre-interview.  Which then filtered them out for a real interview.  

Like stated before, I was pretty darned impressed with most of the applicants I spoke with- only a handful of them said some things that would worry me in a work-team setting- and they didn't move on.

Slippery
Slippery UberDork
7/23/21 1:23 p.m.
dean1484 said:
travellering said:

Higher =/=  hire

Granger =/= grandeur

 

I don't know you or your company, but if you wrote all the copy on your company site yourself, you may be throwing stones from a glass house...

 

Maybe you might benefit from starting your own internship program with nearby design schools.  You may get pick of the litter before they are weaned and cast out into the cold world outside academia, and even if you don't, you should at least get more of an insight into how the schools are preparing their students..

All proofed by some one.  You really think I am that stupid?  I have my reasons for not being good at grammar and spelling but I try and I own it when I screw up.   Oh and then there is auto correct.  If you dont know it is wrong and autocorect is telling you to correct it do you do it?  Autocorect is a dyslexics best friend and worst nightmare all wrapped in to one.  

Is the below text from your website?

"XYZ's staff has more than 60 years of experience that  has enables us to provide our clients options and design solutions from real world experience."

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
7/23/21 1:30 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Unfortunately no CE type stuff.  I can screw together a good garden planter.

matthewmcl (Forum Supporter)
matthewmcl (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/23/21 1:50 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I may have some useful advice, but I don't know how to make a TLDR version to post here. PM me if you want a long winded explanation of what worked for me. It is becoming a little bit too old school for maximum effectiveness, but you still may find it useful.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 1:52 p.m.
Slippery said:
dean1484 said:
travellering said:

Higher =/=  hire

Granger =/= grandeur

 

I don't know you or your company, but if you wrote all the copy on your company site yourself, you may be throwing stones from a glass house...

 

Maybe you might benefit from starting your own internship program with nearby design schools.  You may get pick of the litter before they are weaned and cast out into the cold world outside academia, and even if you don't, you should at least get more of an insight into how the schools are preparing their students..

All proofed by some one.  You really think I am that stupid?  I have my reasons for not being good at grammar and spelling but I try and I own it when I screw up.   Oh and then there is auto correct.  If you dont know it is wrong and autocorect is telling you to correct it do you do it?  Autocorect is a dyslexics best friend and worst nightmare all wrapped in to one.  

Is the below text from your website?

"XYZ's staff has more than 60 years of experience that  has enables us to provide our clients options and design solutions from real world experience."

Honestly, I don't remember I would have to go look.  Why? 

If it is and you want to proof my site I will pay you $100.  I am far from perfect what is your point.  I guarantee there are spelling errors on my site.  I have found them here on the GRM site.  Do I get all wound up about it?  No.   If this whole thread is going to degenerate into a Dean can not spell thread to somehow prove that I have no business even commenting on this subject well then ok. . ..   I really don't know what to say.   It is what it is.  AND I never once commented on the spelling and grammar of the people applying for jobs.  

Slippery
Slippery UberDork
7/23/21 2:04 p.m.
dean1484 said:
Slippery said:
dean1484 said:
travellering said:

Higher =/=  hire

Granger =/= grandeur

 

I don't know you or your company, but if you wrote all the copy on your company site yourself, you may be throwing stones from a glass house...

 

Maybe you might benefit from starting your own internship program with nearby design schools.  You may get pick of the litter before they are weaned and cast out into the cold world outside academia, and even if you don't, you should at least get more of an insight into how the schools are preparing their students..

All proofed by some one.  You really think I am that stupid?  I have my reasons for not being good at grammar and spelling but I try and I own it when I screw up.   Oh and then there is auto correct.  If you dont know it is wrong and autocorect is telling you to correct it do you do it?  Autocorect is a dyslexics best friend and worst nightmare all wrapped in to one.  

Is the below text from your website?

"XYZ's staff has more than 60 years of experience that  has enables us to provide our clients options and design solutions from real world experience."

Honestly, I don't remember I would have to go look.  Why? 

If it is and you want to proof my site I will pay you $100.  I am far from perfect what is your point.  I guarantee there are spelling errors on my site.  I have found them here on the GRM site.  Do I get all wound up about it?  No.   If this whole thread is going to degenerate into a Dean can not spell thread to somehow prove that I have no business even commenting on this subject well then ok. . ..   I really don't know what to say.   It is what it is.  AND I never once commented on the spelling and grammar of the people applying for jobs.  

LOL, I read your $100 offer and stopped reading.

You seem quite touchy and thin skinned. You wrote this:

"All proofed by some one.  You really think I am that stupid?  "

You need to stop complaining about the people that send you resumes and maybe help them improve. It will serve you better at the end. 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/23/21 2:04 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Out of curiosity- at what point does the headcount issue mean that you HAVE to engage one of these applications?

Interesting that cover letters are such a turn off- when I was doing some recruiting, all I saw were resumes.  And we saw so many that there was a pretty standard way to filter them out for a pre-interview.  Which then filtered them out for a real interview.  

Like stated before, I was pretty darned impressed with most of the applicants I spoke with- only a handful of them said some things that would worry me in a work-team setting- and they didn't move on.

The one I posted originally was by far the worst I have seen and that is why I posted it here.  Most are plain vanilla with absolutely no real content.  I have actually reached out to some over the years that were promising but many were just not a good fit.  The couple that seemed promising took positions other places.  

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