Project Cars 2 series 3 discussion

Ok, so we are at the mid-point of series 2, might as well start the conversation about what’s next. 

• Argo wants a Re-rack of Formula Rookies
• Multi-class endurance series featuring Group C prototypes and Group A Cars. Drivers would have to start the series in either class, and then switch mid-series. Time advance would be set so that we could go Day-night-day, and there would be a mandatory pit stop. 
• Clio cups. It would interesting to see who could make their tires last. 
• RX Lites on normal tracks
• Vintage GT / Touring cars (would need to test balance)
• GT3 Carrera Cup based on the street version 

Other ideas, suggestions, votes?

For the vintage and other classes whose cars don't seem very even you could require changing cars during the season.  Maybe one win requires a change, two second place finishes require one.  If you run out of cars you can repeat,  it will make tuning a challenge for the fast drivers, but no one cares if we make it hard on Sauce, right?

I am really not a fan of having to give up a car and things like that.  The Group A cars are pretty competitive with each other and they have adjustable restrictors that could be used for handicap.  I like the idea of multiple classes on the track, just not the idea of dividing up the human drivers.  Could the AI fill a second class?  Would we want them in a faster class trying to pass us? Not.

I'm with Argo, I'm not a fan of giving up cars and trying to balance that way.  This game is complex enough that trying to tune for a specific track can be hard enough, trying to figure out new cars and tracks at the same time on a truncated time table seems like more work than fun.  Other than that I'm up for pretty much anything.

How about something simple with fenders so we can race each other instead of just trying to keep our cars on track pointing in the right direction. 

It seems like some of the classes have some clearly unequal cars, but I am not sure if all the classes (e.g. vintage) have intake restriction settings.  

If you run a multi-class race and have the humans all run in one class, the AI will fill in the rest of the spots (apparently) drawing randomly from the available classes.

We could do a one type street car series such as a Porsche GT3 Cup or something like the Lambo Huracan Trofeo Cup.

Argo1 said:

We could do a one type street car series such as a Porsche GT3 Cup or something like the Lambo Huracan Trofeo Cup.

The street GT3s are a lot of fun. I want to run them for a series at some point. Added to the list. 

My quick look at the various groups that I want to look at closer  

Group A cars

GT4

Vintage Touring and GT

This was one suggestion for a series so here is a blast from the past.  Anyone remember this race?  Full on hammer and tongs.  Lots of fun.

http://youtu.be/ojm7NlUET24

That was fun. I remember that. 

OK, I give up.  what track was that?  I watched the whole thing and it didn't look familiar!

BTW, I forgot that CAM could be fast (when he wasn't missing his braking points after long straights).

I might open the room up a bit early tomorrow (5:00-5:30 pacific?) if anyone wants to show up and play with some of the cars above (I will set the room to multi-class).  Probably some quick cycle practice / races.  Races could get really interesting depending on the classes I pick! (Maybe I should turn off the AI cars?)

We did try the Z28's a few weeks ago, and I found them pretty fun to drive, even with the stock setup.  The last time I tried the street Mustang, it was like driving a 65 Eldorado with 500 lbs of Mexican hash strapped to the roof and blown shocks!  But it was entertaining.

Let me know.  Otherwise I will just play with myself as usual.... hmmm... I might want to restate that....

In reply to aircooled :

It's Red Bull Ring National.

And do you mean tomorrow or Wednesday? I'm up for trying new cars out whenever. 

I am not around tomorrow.  If you or Dean (he needs the practice) want to open a room you can.  Just remember you have to invite anyone you want in the room unless you want to do it open (there are some pretty marginal divers out there though).  You can however invite them more than once (only 8 at a time).

I am going on now if someone wants to practice 

In reply to aircooled :

I will join you Wednesday early to mess around with a few cars.

Just to note, I used the format of setting up 4 classes to test, no AI cars (unless you want some very interesting races).  10 min qualifying and a 3 lap race.  That allowed a good ratio for testing.  You get in about 3 races an hour and it allows the person who runs the room to switch cars every race (participants can switch as much as they want)

The Capris are fun cars.  The street one is pretty slow, but the race version is clearly faster (based on how Argo ran away from me).  The drive a lot like the old muscle cars.  A fair amount of controllable power oversteer and good trail braking fun.

We did try the Vintage GTB cars.  Great mix.  The Capri, 2002 and a hulking Mercedes.  They are a mixture of light to heavy and low power to high power.  I think they are likely only even on smaller tracks, the Mercedes blows away even the 2002 on any straights (but of course is way heavier).  I did try cranking down the restrictor on the Merc (from 75mm to 35mm) and it did not have a huge effect (maybe because is a low RPM torque monster?).  So, that would need to be explored more.

Ran a test (custom) race today with Group C and Group A cars.  When you run single player you load up 32 cars.  Based on my testing and watching that race, I think that's what I favor for our next series.  The bots seemed to behave themselves mostly.  The faster cars will go around the slower cars allowing them to keep the line.  The only issue that I saw was that the faster cars, if they are along side, will go through the corner and expect the slower car to yield the line.  If they are not along side, they will slow up and follow the slower car through.  You need to keep some situational awareness about you, but think that could be some of the fun and challenge (I can already hear Argo complaining about bots taking "his" line).

I actually really like the Clios too.  To me, its not a question of if we run them, but when.  I'm leaning towards series 4.  I like to try and run an open series, and then a spec series.  It gives good variety.  We are just coming out of a single make spec series, so I want to open it up to let people pick different cars.

Here's the Power-to-Weight ratio for most of the cars in the game:

Modern Open-Wheel
Formula Rookie - 8.83
Formula C - 5.37
Formula Renault - 2.59
IndyCar - 2.37
Formula A - 1.88
Formula X - 1.39

Vintage Open-Wheel
Lotus 51 - 8.10
Lotus 25 - 4.98
*Lotus 49 - 2.99
*Lotus 49C - 2.79
*Lotus 72D - 2.67
Lotus 78 - 2.80
Lotus 98T - 0.91
*Class Average - 2.82

G40 Junior
Ginetta G40 Junior - 19.62

Group 4
M1 Procar - 4.63

Group 5 - Class Average - 3.11
Nissan 280ZX IMSA - 2.99
Ford Zakspee Capri - 2.99
BMW 320 Turbo - 3.01
Porsche 935/77 & 80 - 3.10
Nissan KDR30 - 3.46

Group 6 - Class Averagae - 3.10
Porsche 936 Spyder - 3.14
Renault Alpine A442B - 3.03

Group A - Class Average - 6.10
Nissan Skyline R32 - 5.55
Ford Sierra Cosworth - 5.87
Audi V8 Quattro DTM - 6.12
Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution 2 - 6.35
BMW M3 Group A - 6.61

Group C - Class Average - 2.57
Nissan GTP ZX-T - 2.33
Nissan R89C - 2.50
Porsche 962C - 2.60
Jaguar XJR-9 - 2.69
Mercedes Sauber C9 - 2.75

GT1 - Class Average - 3.47
Ferrari F50 GT - 3.34
McLaren F1 GTR LT - 3.36
Toyota GT-One - 3.38
Nissan R390GT - 3.45
Panoz Esperante GTR - 3.54
Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM - 3.58
Porsche 911 GT-1 - 3.67

GT3 - Class Average - 5.56
Mercedes-Benz SLS-AMG - 5.03
Renault RS01 - 5.23
BMW Z4 - 5.31
Aston Martin Vantage - 5.35
Porsche 911 - 5.48
McLaren 650S - 5.58
Mercedes-AMG - 5.58
BMW M6 - 5.61
Nissan GT-R - 5.61
Audi R8 - 5.62
Ginetta G55 - 5.63
Acura NSX - 5.66
Ferrari 488 - 5.69
Lamborghini Huracan - 5.73
Bentley Continental - 5.87
Cadillac ATS-V.R - 5.91

GTE - Class Average - 5.28
BMW M6 - 4.88
Aston Martin Vantage - 5.19
Ferrari 488 - 5.25
Chevrolet Corvette C7.R - 5.48
Ford GT - 5.58

GT4 - Class Average - 7.44
KTM X-Bow - 7.01
Toyota GT-86 RB - 7.09
Ginetta G55 - 7.24
Aston Martin Vantage - 7.24
BMW M3 - 7.41
Porsche Cayman - 7.62
Ford Mustang RTR - 7.83
Ford Mustang Boss 302R - 8.05

GT5
Ginetta G40 - 12.53

GTO - Class Average - 3.98
Ferrari F40 LM - 3.23
Nissan 300ZX Turbo - 3.40
Audi 90 quattro IMSA GTO - 3.70
Ford Mustang Cobra TA - 4.31
Lamborghini Diablo GTR - 5.30

LMP2 - Class Average - 4.3
Oreca 03 Nissan - 4.26
RWD P20 - 4.26
Ligier JS P2 Nissan/Judd - 4.31
Marek RP219D - 4.31
Ligier JS P2 Honda - 4.36

LMP3 - Class Average - 4.72
Ginetta LMP3 - 4.72
Ligier JS P3 - 4.72

LMP900 - Class Average - 3.31
Bentley Speed 8 - 3.23
Audi R8 - 3.25
Ferrari 333SP - 3.29
Toyota GT-One - 3.32
BMW V12 LMR - 3.47

Megane Trophy
Renault Megane Trophy V6 - 5.50

Road A - Class Average - 3.99
Pagani Huayra BC - -3.55
McLaren P1 - 3.62
Ferrari LaFerrari - 3.67
Porsche 918 Spyder - 4.16
McLaren 720S - 4.36
Radical RXC Turbo - 4.56

Road B - Class Average - 4.56
Jaguar XJ220S - 3.40
Pagani Zonda Cinque - 3.93
BAC Mono - 4.19
Lamborghini Veneno - 4.26
Ferrari Enzo - 4.67
Ford GT - 4.82
Lamborghini Aventador- 4.96
Porsche 911 GT3RS - 6.26

Road C - Class Average - 5.63
McLaren F1 - 3.99
Lamborghini Huracan - 5.13
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 5.42
Toyota GT-86 Rocket Bunny - 5.42
Aston Martin Vantage - 5.85
Mercedes-AMG GT-R - 5.94
Audi R8 V10 Plus - 5.98
Nissan GT-R Nismo - 6.52
Acura NSX - 6.65

Road D - Class Average - 6.08
Caterham 620R - 4.28
KTM X-Bow R - 5.80
Chevrolet Camaro ZL-1 - 5.97
Aston Martin DB11 - 6.50
Jaguar F-Type SVR - 6.88
BMW 1M StanceWorks - 7.04

Road E - Class Average - 8.44
Ferrari 288 GTO - 7.26
Mercedes-AMG C 63 Coupe S - 7.56
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX - 8.43
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X - 8.59
Ford Mustang GT - 8.74
Mercedes-AMG A45 - 8.98
BMW 1M Coupe - 9.53

Road F - Class Average - 10.86
Honda Civic Type-R - 9.95
Renault Megane RS 275 - 10.39
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI TME - 10.75
Audi A1 quattro - 12.34

Road G - Class Average - 12.45
Ford F-150 RTR - 10.52
Ford Mustang '66 - 10.71
BMW 2002 Turbo - 13.42
Toyota GT-86 - 13.57
Ford Escort RS1600 - 14.05

RS01 Trophy
Renault Sport R.S. 01 - 4.58

RXLites
Olsbergs MSE RX Supercar Lite - 8.46

Super Trofeo
Lamborghini Huracan ST - 4.58

TC1
Renault Clio Cup - 11.62

Touring Car - Class Average - 8.36
BMW 320 TC - 8.04
Mercedes-AMG A45 SMS-R - 8.42
Renault Megane R.S. SMS-R - 8.42
Opel Astra TCR - 8.58

Track Day A - Class Average - 3.37
Pagani Zonda Revolucion - 2.95
McLaren P1 GTR - 3.19
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI SVA - 3.20
Radical SR8-RX - 3.57
Ginetta G57 - 3.58
Aston Martin Vulcan - 3.70

Track Day B - Class Average - 4.22
Lamborghini Sesto Elemento - 3.86
Caterham SP/300.R - 3.94
Honda 2&4 Concept - 4.10
Nissan Skyline SMS-S - 4.54
Radican SR3-RS - 4.66

V8 Supercars
Ford Falcon FG - 4.89

Vintage Prototypes - Class Average - 4.25
Ferrari 330 P4 - 3.88
Lotus 40 - 4.43
Ford GT Mk. IV - 4.45

Vintage RX
Ford Escort RS1600 RX - 8.87

Vintage Touring-GT A - Class Average - 6.80
Jaguar E-Type V12 Group44 - 5.80
Ferrari 365 GTB4 - 6.83
Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 - 6.79
Nissan 240ZG GTS-II - 7.78

Vintage Touring-GT B - Class Average - 8.49
Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.8 AMG - 8.14
BMW 2002 StanceWorks - 8.45
Ford Escort RS1600 (Racing) - 8.87

Vintage Touring-GT C
Aston Martin DBR1/300 - 7.43

Vintage Touring-GT D
Mercedes-Benz 300 SL (W194) - 12.06

No, the bots don't take my line. You take my line.

So I spent a few minutes testing Vintage Touring A.  I ran all cars at Laguna Seca with the standard tune and just ran four laps each.  Clearly, each car could have benefited from tuning, gearing, brakes, etc.   They all felt that they could be competitive except perhaps the Z Car... it would be good for Sauce.  The Jag might be a bit of a ringer once sorted out.  Here are the times, your mileage may vary:

Z Car - 1:41.6

Daytona - 1:40.5

RSR - 1:40.4

Mustang - 1:38.8

Camaro - 1:38.6

Jag - 1:38.2

How about a Ford vs Chevy vintage Trans Am series?

Cool.  Thanks for the testing.  So, what you are saying is that Sauce has to drive the 240? 

Swapping cars can be a pain but the 240 could be the handicap car and the Jag the "helper" car.

Like you say though, a Camaro / Mustang series could work also.  The good thing is if you don't have the updates, the z/28 is still available.

OK Air, I'm going to hijack this thread one more time.  Here is the body tag.  Do you have the magic decoder ring?  The AC mystery has been solved.  It was a dealer installed GM a/c unit.  Details like the bolt in spare tire mount in the trunk give it away.

I like the way PC2 handles the DLC. I think technically everyone has the DLC, you pay for ability to use it. So even if you choose not to buy it, I’m pretty sure you can still drive the DLC tracks and see the DLC cars. 

You all know me and jags.