It’s such a simple question: What’s it cost? In the
world of classic cars, however, it’s one we spend a lot
of time either obsessing over or ignoring completely.
We obsess over it at auctions, where the prices of
even common collector cars like Mustangs and Triumph
TRs approach $40,000. We think that’s crazy, but
isn’t that just another way of saying we conveniently
ignore the flip side of that purchase cost? I’m talking, of
course, about the cost to restore a car.
I’ve been spending a lot of time on that flip side
restoring our Mini Cooper project car. When I first
looked at this car, the owner was asking $10,000–and
boldly told me that it was worth $25,000 when it was
done. I explained to him that he was absolutely right:
Once I bought his car for $10,000 and put another
$25,000 in it, it would be worth $25,000.
He sheepishly cut his asking price in half and I
bought the car.
Fast-forward a few years, and we are nearly done
restoring this cool little numbers-matching 1967 Mini
Cooper S. On the plus side, in concours condition it is
now worth more like $40,000; on the minus side, it was
(of course) way rougher than we originally thought. We
just got finished with nearly 200 hours of welding and
fabrication just to make the shell perfect again.
That’s the nature of restoration costs: They’re
nebulous. They grow over time. They also tend to stay
hidden, since a reluctance to face bad news (or one’s
spouse) means the receipts are often hidden, ignored
or lost. Even if they are tracked religiously, they rarely
include the costs of sorting a newly rebuilt car.
It all adds up to this: Not many of us really know what
it costs to restore a car. That’s especially true for those
of us who do at least some of the work ourselves. We
don’t calculate how much time we spend in the garage,
and how would we assign a cost to it if we did?
Nevertheless, let’s try a little math here. So we
bought a Mini for $5000, and spent $10,000 at Mini
Mania for parts. Let’s not forget the used door and
other pieces we got from Heritage Garage–better
add another $1000 there. We spent a few thousand in
machine work doing the head and rebuilding the transmission.
We bought Vredestein tires and Koni shocks;
this set us back another $1500 or so. We spent another
$2000 rebuilding the rest of the suspension, since
we decided to stick with the original displacers. A
paint job is going to set us back $5000, and that‘s only
because our paint guy takes real, real good care of
us. We got a new wiring harness from British Wiring,
an insulation kit from Quiet Ride Solutions, and we
had the original heater rebuilt by Ron Jernigan.
Chock up another grand or two. We sent the gauges
to Nisonger, and while they come back perfect every
time, that cost a few bucks as well.
Add this all up, throw in the additional $5000 in
miscellaneous expenses that I know this car will need
before it is done, and we have a grand total of nearly
$35,000. Right off the bat, we’re $10,000 over the
$25,000 cost I quoted the original owner when I bought
the car. We always seem to underestimate costs–plus,
as we have mentioned, although this car was very
original and had all its numbers matching, it had been
ridden hard and put away very, very wet.
At least I can comfort myself with the idea of a $5000
profit on my projected $40,000 sale, right? Yes and no.
Notice that we haven’t talked about labor. Along with
my buddies Jere and Tom, I have some 500 hours in
this car already. At $20 an hour, that’s about $10,000.
At a more realistic $50-$70 shop rate, that’s a cubic
crapton of money. And if this car was more complicated,
like the Sunbeam Tiger project we did a few
years ago, that number would be more like 2000 hours.
Obviously, my accountant would tell me that none of
my hard work makes any sense. Going to auction and
buying a nicely restored Mini at auction for top dollar
looks like the deal of a lifetime, right?
Not so fast. We haven’t figured in my savings on
therapy costs, and let’s face it, a good shrink charges
more than even the most expensive shop rate. And
since most of us crazies would spend our time (and
money) on some other bad habit if we weren’t out in
the shop, I consider myself money ahead for every
hour I spend there.
Back in the real world, though, if you’re a bottomline
kind of person, purchasing finished cars is the
way to go. If you can get a car at club-newsletter
prices, you’ll win big, but even if you pay all the money
at auction, you’ll still save time and dollars over trying
to restore it.
If, however, you are like me and you do this because
you love it, then you can’t put a dollar figure on what
you get out of bringing old cars back to life. I have
restored more than 40 cars in the last 30 years, and
as I near the finish line with our Mini, I am already
getting excited about the 1958 Tornado Typhoon I’m
going to do next. After all, I’ve spent way more
on stupider stuff.
Comments
rconlon
HalfDork
11/24/14 3:45 p.m.
Tim:
This is even more complex than you make it. A big part of the restoration and its cost is related directly to your work with the magazine and this offsets much of the insanity. It is justifiable insanity, if you will, and CMS is better for it. To others, this project could be justified by building the best restored Mini Cooper and $60K is the cost that they are willing and able to spend on an expensive hobby. I think any good professional shop would have jumped at the chance to restore your car for $60k. I suspect that their efficiency would make such a deal profitable for them. I purchased my Fiat in 1999 and set a budget of $100 per month for purchase, parts and upkeep. I could buy a new Kia for that but, I did not want a Kia but neither did I expect an award winning show car. After about 180 months (60,000 miles), I have about $7500 spent on or under the car and a lot of hours of labor. I have no good answer for someone saying that the Kia would have been a better choice other than it is something I wanted to do and the Fiat is a fun car not my only family car.
NOHOME
SuperDork
11/24/14 6:46 p.m.
A subject that is near and dear to my heart and one that I have looked into.
In broad terms, a car is a car is a car, and will require 1000 hours (give or take 200 hours) of labour to pull apart, go over each component and put it together as new.
How much is being paid for that labour is the big question.
If we restrict ourselves to the more popular classics like Mustangs and British stuff, even the systems are pretty predictable: say 2k for suspension&brakes, 7k for drivetrain, 3k for interior, 3k for shiny chrome bling and 2,012 for stuff you never even thought of. Toss in 1.5k for paint materials.
Where it gets complicated is if we start to count the cost of the tools.
I think our esteemed Publisher/Rock Star summed it up best when he said:
"Not so fast. We haven’t figured in my savings on therapy costs, and let’s face it, a good shrink charges more than even the most expensive shop rate. And since most of us crazies would spend our time (and money) on some other bad habit if we weren’t out in the shop, I consider myself money ahead for every hour I spend there."
GWGarrard
rconlon
HalfDork
11/25/14 10:26 a.m.
There is more. How many restorers actually acquire a project and then immediately set to work on it? My experience is that they do this maybe once with their first car and then get one or two projects-in-waiting stored until their time comes. These are the ones who restore cars for their hobby. Much like Tim has intimated, the Cooper is the flavor of the month but then the next one is waiting and something after that. Storage could be considered also a cost but then the right car (like a Dino) stored for 5 years could be the next big profit maker. I think the restorer group likely hits the holy grail of making a profit a few times but that is not the goal.
NOHOME
SuperDork
11/25/14 11:14 a.m.
Compared to playing golf as a hobby, nothing car guys do is even remotely stupid or a waste of time and/or money.
Rupert
HalfDork
11/25/14 12:37 p.m.
Tell it like it is! None of us will admit what we actually pay for our car hobby. If fact, other than for warranty or ownership issues I've always refused to keep receipts. In case a significant other is listening or checking into the accounts!
But, if it will make you feel any less guilty. I've also played with planes and boats over the years. Either of those hobbies will make almost anyone who plays with cars except Jay Leno seem like a cheap skate in comparison!
Rupert... A friend opinions that any amounts that might be shared with your significant other should only be 50% of the actual costs as that is all they are entitled to. My wife never asks costs but does suggest that any new vehicle to be added to the fleet require that another be let go. So far I haven't been held to that requirement :-)
"Obviously, my accountant would tell me that none of my hard work makes any sense. Going to auction and buying a nicely restored Mini at auction for top dollar looks like the deal of a lifetime, right?"
Tim, ignoring for the moment your fantastic comment about 'tool therapy', consider this: without folks who put so much effort into doing this stuff, there'd be even fewer examples of that car still living. I saw this on BaT today, I can't help but wonder if the difference is between folks that would do the work themselves and folks that won't (or can't), and just throw cubic dollars at it. I suspect that emotional stuff is the root of either kind of behavior.
That being said, at least one more car survives, regardless of how it came to be. And I'm cool with that.
EDIT: Forgot the link to BaT. Datsun Z that needed a ton of dough to get welded back together. http://bringatrailer.com/2014/11/24/big-number-restoration-1970-datsun-240z/
What's that old saying about restoring an old car. Figure out your cost and time and be very generous. Then multiply by two.
From day one I have kept every receipt for Datsun, I also have kept track of all the parts I sold. My tally also includes race entries, gas ,tires and gaskets. Why did I do this (besides being mental)? I did it because when I started racing motorcycles I saw guys spend stupid amounts of money that they couldn't really afford to spend, they'd race two seasons and then it would all be over. As I decided to be a racer as a kid, it was 15 years before I actually got to do it and so I wanted it to last. Also who would pay $35,000 for a Datsun 1200 or Pinto or Spitfire etc. then sell it for a tenth of that because either they burned out on the project or the wife burned up over the project. From 1986 to June of this year I'd spent just shy of 23k for the bikes, cars, trailer, tow vehicles entries everything. This represents 5-6 track events and 8 autocross events annually. My recent F500 purchase adds close to another 4k to this.......this equates to 30k in 30 years and that is pretty cheap hobby. My spend is higher now as I earn much more than I used to so I longer need to wheel and deal on parts to pay for my habit. Of course I still do it on the cheap.
My approach is kind of the polar opposite of Tim's, I'm not doing high profile projects. The color of the Datsun is known as mis-tint red, the auto parts paint store had a gallon of red that was a mis-tint, it very close to what I wanted but at $26 for PPG the fact that it wasn't the exact color is fine by me. My project's directions tend to be dictated by major costs; If the original motor is trash and I can get an upgraded version that bolts in cheap so be it, this is how the Japanese home market motor ended up in the 1200. I sprayed tank on my vintage MX bike with rattle cans, it is not the exact Yamaha yellow but looks very good. On the F500 we are doing some vinyl graphics to clean it up, my wife is an artist and vinyl is really cost effective.
As for labor I do not count my labor, frankly fabrication ability is not worth much, as the point of sweat equity is the free labor.
I will pose one question who counts the gasoline used fetching parts or other indirect costs like tools, chemicals etc? We could go on forever as to the real costs with things like amortizing the cost of the shop into each project etc.
So the long winded answer to Tim is "yes it's worth every penny"
Tom
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By Tim Suddard
