Pete Gossett said:Most autocrosses have some kind of separate novice meeting/walkthrough/whatever? Maybe a veteran Challenger can volunteer each year for the job, and similar to the pro drivers, get them a special t-shirt so they’ll be easy to pick out of the crowd? Though they might need a shirt for Thurs/Fri/Sat.
(Waving hand wildly) I volunteer to do that!
I knew they were changing the name of the event to $2000 Challenge but I was a bit bummed to see the t-shirts no longer have a year designation. I totally get this from a production/inventory standpoint. However, I will miss the pleasure of pulling out my 10-year-old challenge shirt with a bit of nostalgia. Could we find a GRM solution to this and make up a stencil that we can roll print the current year on? I could always do it with a sharpie but something a little more professional could look cool and tie in with the customize theme.
As someone who has been coming since the $1500 Challenge in 1999, I agree that the event just keeps getting better. The GRM team works to find ways to improve it every year. This year we had a big field, along with new faces and new attractions like gastropods, music, tacos, and "Big Daddy" himself.
As a "Pro" driver, I would like to thank everyone who entrusted their cars to me, and I hope I was able to improve your scores.
I was especially pleased this year by the enthusiasm and performance of the student teams. I think a project like building a race car can provide good life lessons, even for those who will not go on to become mechanics, painters or fabricators. Good job, all of you!
The new autocross grid format seemed to work well. The layout for the autocross course area allowed for another good course, even better than last year's. The drag race lane assignments obviously allowed for some impressive passes by some really quick cars.
My only concern is that putting live scoring out on the internet was a step forward, but I don't think it eliminates the need for posting times and scores promptly and conveniently at the autocross site. You know, for those who don't carry their phones while they autocross, or can't get the link to work, or can't see their phone screen very well in the sun, or can't navigate the spreadsheet very well on their phone, etc.. Maybe I am wrong, but I believe that, when someone finishes an autocross run, they generally want to know immediately: 1. What was my time? 2. Was it clean? and 3. Where does that put me? The raw times on post-it notes took care of one of those, but not the other two. I'd wager a lot of folks had no idea where they stood until the autocross was over.
All in all, a memorable event!
Danny
Danny, I hear you there, but here's the real reason we eliminated printed results: It eliminated a huge logistics issue, because we didn't need to a have a staffer printing and posting times, and we didn't need to design the grid/course in a way that allowed for heavy foot traffic near the Timing & Scoring trailer. We made the call that the benefits outweighed the costs.
In reply to Danny Shields :
Good point, I didn't realize the post-its were raw times until I looked at the spreadsheet more carefully and saw that one of the runs had a cone hit that I wasn't aware of. The only other autocross I've done, they wrote "+1" or whatever on the time they handed you.
In reply to hobiercr :
I agree big time. It's cool having a collection of shirts with all of the different years. Having a shirt without the year on it just isn't the same.
In reply to n8 :
I agree also. Even Lil Stampie brought it up to me. Hopefully this years shirts will be collectable as the no year Challenge shirts.
I echo the autox grid was awesome.
Stampie said:In reply to n8 :
I agree also. Even Lil Stampie brought it up to me. Hopefully this years shirts will be collectable as the no year Challenge shirts.
I dunno. I totally get the switch to "2000 Challenge"
It's easy to search, and designing/printing a VARIETY of things that say "2000 Challenge" is way more efficient/cheaper than doing something year-specific every-year.
Aside from my $2004 challenge shirt (our first year,) I'm not sentimental or nostalgic about it.
I'm going to join the echo chamber saying things were excellent- autox, drags, and concours all ran really smoothly. Drags were halted a few times so the Hellcat could get its' ass beat by an old Sunbird but that seemed like just about the only stoppage. I also want to thank GRM for allowing myself and Pete to play music during the drags, and specifically letting us set up in an open space where I could park and jump from truck to drumset and back again, an incredibly unique opportunity! And while we're at it with unofficial stuff, for "not noticing" the taco bar as well.
slowbird said:In reply to Danny Shields :
Good point, I didn't realize the post-its were raw times until I looked at the spreadsheet more carefully and saw that one of the runs had a cone hit that I wasn't aware of. The only other autocross I've done, they wrote "+1" or whatever on the time they handed you.
I was writing times during the 2nd heat. The cars were coming in so quickly, and with only 2-3 seconds between the time a car tripped the lights & was pulling up to get their time, it meant I rarely was able to put eyes on a car much before the 2nd to last corner.
Also, at least for my old eyes, it was very difficult to see the times from the finish - particularly the 3rd digit/10ths of a second. Also, a couple cars were tall enough to block the display when they stopped in front of it.
I’m not sure what the best solution is, but it might be worth investigating something for next year.
sleepyhead the buffalo said:Mndsm said:Andy Neuman said:Thought the event was great. Grid was the best it has been in years.
I kind of want to bring a car, maybe slightly over budget, that anyone can make fun runs in to get a chance to run at the autocross or drag strip. A surprising number of entrants have either rarely autocrossed or drag raced.
An instructor mobile, with a volunteer instructor (designated n00b wrangler) for fun runs and such would be fantastic.
Are y'all thinking auto, or stick?
As much as I'd like to say Manuel, I believe his German brother Otto would make more sense. Focus on the core of auto x without having to shift the car as well- and there might even be some out there that don't know Manuel. Take the lessons down to simple. I'd never try and reach a new driver stick and road laws at the same time, imo.
I realize the 12 point "don't judge me" rule is in place to help alleviate the load for the judges, but.... I am not a fan
I feel the presentation is a big part of the event. You get to show case your work, explain what makes you car special and most importantly talk about the journey that got you to the challenge. Allowing someone to take an average score with out putting forth any effort whatsoever is unfair to the competitors who spent months preparing their cars.
I recieved a 13 for my NX2000 which I think is a great score and was representative of a car that was clean, well presented and not particularly innovative. But to give someone who puts no effort forth, brings a dirty car in poor condition with no story a 12 is lame. If the competitor's car is not presentable, or has no back story it should be scored accordingly.
I mean if I don't build my car to autocross or drag race well I can't take an average score in either of those events so why should someone have that option for the presentation or appearance portion. It removes the incentive to bring a clean well thought out car with a cool story.
Just my opinion...
pimpm3 said:I realize the 12 point "don't judge me" rule is in place to help alleviate the load for the judges, but.... I am not a fan
I feel the presentation is a big part of the event. You get to show case your work, explain what makes you car special and most importantly talk about the journey that got you to the challenge. Allowing someone to take an average score with out putting forth any effort whatsoever is unfair to the competitors who spent months preparing their cars.
I recieved a 13 for my NX2000 which I think is a great score and was representative of a car that was clean, well presented and not particularly innovative. But to give someone who puts no effort forth, brings a dirty car in poor condition with no story a 12 is lame. If the competitor's car is not presentable, or has no back story it should be scored accordingly.
I mean if I don't build my car to autocross or drag race well I can't take an average score in either of those events so why should someone have that option for the presentation or appearance portion. It removes the incentive to bring a clean well thought out car with a cool story.
Just my opinion...
We ended up with a 14 for Betsy, which we both (chris and I) felt was pretty good/fair. We also put thought and effort into how the truck presented, how Chris was going to present, and how the build book came off as part of the package/presentation. So while i think we were scored well when we look at what we did vs what was the criteria of the judging , it does feel like choosing to forgo that effort probably could/should reflect more of a gap. Suggestion: maybe make it 10 instead of 12 points?
In reply to bluej :
I totally agree, you and Chris had a great story, the truck presented well, and the drums in the bed were super cool. A 14 was very appropriate.
Putting forth no effort and forgoing the presentation should net an 8 or a 9 tops in my opinion.
I hear you re: 12 points, but the reality is that we added cars without shortening the amount of presentation time allotted. In order to do that, we need a mechanism that allows us to skip some cars. Skipping the slowest cars wouldn't be fair to those who had planned presentations, so skipping the cars that competitors don't want to present is the better option.
For what it's worth, I do think that 12 points is a good number for convincing people to skip judging- I know I was pretty worried about not doing any better than 12 (apologies to those of you I practiced my concours pitch on before the judges came by) and would have been on the fence about even doing it if I felt the stakes were much higher. So, from that perspective it makes sense.
I still think everyone should get a chance to tell their story, though, so I did a lot of trying to convince other teams to give a presentation rather than take a 12. 
In reply to Tom Suddard :
How about lowering the score for the people who opt out of the presentation? A 9 or 10 would make for a fairer representation of the condition of the cars that opt out, based on my observations.
Tom Suddard said:I hear you re: 12 points, but the reality is that we added cars without shortening the amount of presentation time allotted. In order to do that, we need a mechanism that allows us to skip some cars. Skipping the slowest cars wouldn't be fair to those who had planned presentations, so skipping the cars that competitors don't want to present is the better option.
I don't think anyone thinks it would be a good idea to get rid of the "opt-out" option. Are you open to a discussion about adjusting the level that's set at, or better we let it go?
If we lower it, fewer people will opt out, and the judges finished less than 5 minutes before the 2pm deadline this year. A lower score would be less of an incentive to take the 12, and we would need to judge more cars.
I don't like the take the 12 rule either, but I don't have a better solution.
If I think of something, ill let you know.
In reply to Robbie :
How about "take the answer"- anyone who opts out is given the same score as the most stock Miata that actually gives a presentation?
This is obviously kind of dumb, but something referenced to the other scores makes sense from a competitor perspective. From Tom's perspective, though, I'm pretty sure what we're saying is "berkeley your story, if it's not cool enough to beat the twelve get out of our way, judges be tired."
How about judge all the vehicles that opt out as a group and give them all the same score. Kind of an average based on the group condition, based solely on their appearance. No description etc... you could knock all of them in out in less than 10 minutes if they are parked in the same area.
Mndsm said:sleepyhead the buffalo said:Mndsm said:Andy Neuman said:I kind of want to bring a car, maybe slightly over budget, that anyone can make fun runs in to get a chance to run at the autocross or drag strip. A surprising number of entrants have either rarely autocrossed or drag raced.
An instructor mobile, with a volunteer instructor (designated n00b wrangler) for fun runs and such would be fantastic.
Are y'all thinking auto, or stick?
As much as I'd like to say Manuel, I believe his German brother Otto would make more sense. Focus on the core of auto x without having to shift the car as well- and there might even be some out there that don't know Manuel. Take the lessons down to simple. I'd never try and reach a new driver stick and road laws at the same time, imo.
I reckon you probably want a sedan of some kind, to maximize "ride alongs"; and some kind of hard-wearing 200tw (Falkens?).
Traditional thinking would probably point to some variety of 6cyl E36 or E46, but there's something to be said for copying some of the traccord build into a sedan. There also seems to be some experience with Q45's / G35's being up to the rigors of 'n00b taxi' duty.
And, of course, there's my irrational fondness for NF Sonatas
Since the idea of the 12 point default is to get people to opt out... what about incentivizing it in some other way? 10 points and two free banquet tickets? 9 points and $40 off your entry for next year?
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