$2019 Gastropods - come join us.

In reply to SVreX :

I'm cool with that, write the rule better than I did and we'll all argue about it. 

Following maintenance items are excluded from the budget when replaced with OEM or equal parts:

- Timing belt

- Plugs

- Plug wires

- Belts

- Hoses

- Wiper blades

- Filters

Feel free to argue the details further. 

...but honestly I’d be fine with ZERO exemptions. I think it suits the class. 

EDIT: Considering it further, I’d prefer no exemptions at all.  

Both make sense.  Since this isn't a super official thing, I would vote for the real-life-accounting version.  If you bought it, you bought it!  If you buy a car for $1999.99 and bank on it needing nothing, that's probably not a good gastropod candidate even if it may be a stellar normal-challenge-with-recoup candidate.  Like, the worst case scenario here is that someone has to just...enter...the...challenge.  normally.  which they're still legal for.  What a darn shame.

In reply to RedGT :

Exactly. 

In reply to RedGT :

What I was hoping for is baby steps into the world of proper crazy Challenge accounting. Part of doing well at the Challenge is starting to think about car building within a rule set which is a LOT different than thinking of building in the real world. If you look at Dusterbd's build thread, the accounting that gets him to where he's at is overwhelming. How do you get from "$2000, done" to "I spent a year horse trading to get this supercharger for $7 and here is the spread sheet to prove it"? 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

Ive been thinking about the accounting a lot lately. It seems that the top 20 of the challenge has become an arms race, where the best accountants and builders are really the only competition. I feel partly responsible for this, as my budgeting and build abilities make it seem (to me) that you have to be a "superhero" to compete. Which actually takes away from the challenge as a whole, because guys look at my builds and think they cant compete, and dont feel like participating. 

Thats why i believe the gastropod class is vital to the future of the challenge. It gives a level playing field like the early days of tbe challenge (what i remember) with a concrete goal and the ability for anyone to compete regardless of skill/equipment/shops.

I liken it to the pro-touring world. At the beginning, the events were run what you brung, with nice, decent handling street cars. When i walked away from the events, tube framed silhouette cars were the norm, and stuff like my duster was pointless to enter. 

Back to gastropods: when the bmw sells, i will be building a replacement. Out of a mazda6 or neon. On 300tw tires, as a daily. For 2k. For the gastropods next year. (Essentially what i did with the first amc, the s10, and the acr. None of which went to the challenge.)

To combine the two philosophies, would it make sense to say for the gastropods you can do svrex's list of maintenance items according to recoup rules, rather than budget-free?  Keeps it from turning into an arms race for that $7 supercharger, but follows the real challenge rules and teaches the process.

RedGT said:

To combine the two philosophies, would it make sense to say for the gastropods you can do svrex's list of maintenance items according to recoup rules, rather than budget-free?  Keeps it from turning into an arms race for that $7 supercharger, but follows the real challenge rules and teaches the process.

That was my intention when I wrote that 3k word treatise on how it was unfair that my parents wouldn't pay for car parts but would pay for horse supplies for my sister. Ok, I didn't go that far into it, but I still have hard feelings. 

So yes, I kind of want to let people play the recoup game, but just for items on the list. Show us how you did it and why and get a flavor for how the other half lives.

I think recoup is very confusing, and should be an either/or scenario.  Either we do it, or we don’t.

I don’t think it belongs in this class.

And we don’t need “recoup lite” to learn how to recoup.  I learned it by doing.  I participated in the Challenge, didn’t do recoup well, and got very good at it over the years.  I watched what other people did, re-read the rules (saying to myself, “Wait, can they do that?”), and learned.

BTW, I think a “recoup lite” approach is even more confusing than standard recoup. 

You are suggesting not only that we recoup, but that we are limited in what we buy with the recoup money, have to document it separately, and have to justify our reasoning. It may be a smaller dollar amount, but it is more complicated than standard recoup. 

I say none.  Standard Challenge safety exemptions, no recoup. 

(Keep in mind, I am VERY good at recoup.  I just don’t think it needs to be here, and don’t think beginners should have to learn to do it against ME)

My $0.02

In reply to SVreX :

Someone asked how to do the standard "new old car maintenance" stuff within budget. There are two responses to that question. 

1. You don't. This is the challenge. You decide whether it's worth 10% of your budget to make the car reliable enough to get there and back. Oh, and to participate in this class that we've totally made up, here are rules that make this is even harder. 

2. We understand that driving an unreliable car 1000 miles each way sucks. We want you to make it reliable. We're willing to write a very specific loophole into our totally made up rule set that let's you make your car more reliable and still remain legal for the Challenge as well as the Gastropods. 

I want people to attend the event. I want them to drive from a reeeeeeeealy long way away in their Challenge cars if possible and not have a bad time. 

Fair enough.  I can see how the limited version is even more confusing - I am also aware I have never attended so that may invalidate my opinion.

I kinda like the svrex version as said before.  No recoup, buy a car with room in the budget to make it reliable.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to SVreX :

Someone asked how to do the standard "new old car maintenance" stuff within budget. There are two responses to that question. 

1. You don't. This is the challenge. You decide whether it's worth 10% of your budget to make the car reliable enough to get there and back. Oh, and to participate in this class that we've totally made up, here are rules that make this is even harder. 

2. We understand that driving an unreliable car 1000 miles each way sucks. We want you to make it reliable. We're willing to write a very specific loophole into our totally made up rule set that let's you make your car more reliable and still remain legal for the Challenge as well as the Gastropods. 

I want people to attend the event. I want them to drive from a reeeeeeeealy long way away in their Challenge cars if possible and not have a bad time. 

I’m totally good with that. In fact, it may have been me that asked....

(sometimes I flip flop)

If you want to make an opening for basic maintenance items, I prefer the exempt list approach to the “recoup lite”. Just a list of the basics. K.I.S.S.

Any recoup/maintenance exemption rule for the Gastropods still needs to meet the overall event rules. So, the $1999.99 example wouldn't work without there being a recoup/maintenance rule, or just stick to the no recoup. I don't have a dog in this fight, just a lot of free time to make comments. 

In reply to SVreX and DeadSkunk :

Yes, I would personally be 100% fine with maintenance exemptions for the class, but we can't do that and remain Challenge legal. We have to work within the magazine's rules and I agree whole heartedly with why they don't have an exemption in the rule set for these items. 

$200 recoup limit for Gastropod... that leaves it up to the team to decide:  go fast or go reliable

fits under the existing rules, gives budget to do all the necessary "reliable parts" not included in the "safety exemptions"... gives you a toe in the water about how to work recoup.  Heck, you could also limit to recoup only on the original "car" purchase, and not any of the other 'challenge specific recoup machinations'

if you think this will become an arms race, then I propose two awards:
Gastropod Winner
Gastropod "I drove to Challenge in my Challenge Car, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

?

standard caveats:  IRTRTBW, YMMV, IIRC, NDITF

If I got my Gastropod for free, and sold the ghetto rims it has for $200. Does that give me a budget of $2219?

In reply to yupididit :

Overall rules prevent you from going negative. Car was free so selling anything lines your pockets, but does not contribute to the budget , so you can spend $2K on the car.  AND, a little detail.....it's the $2000 Challenge henceforth. There isn't any more $19 extra to play with.

In reply to DeadSkunk :

Thanks! 

Wow I didn't mean to kick over a hornet's nest in asking the question. I'm guess we will just have to look at budget closer. My thought was the original class goal said something about putting your daughter in the car and be comfortable with her driving 25k miles. I personally would not do that with an unknown used engine, without doing some of the pm stuff.

I could make our budget work under normal challenge re coup rules, and I'm not good at this game, but it would be more difficult under gastropod rules. Which was why the original question.

So as I understand this, if I break a timing belt at an event before the challenge, I can replace it for no budget hit, but if I replace it in advance, it goes in budget.

I just want to be playing by the rules.

In reply to Fladiver64 :

That's the current Challenge rule as I understand it. 

In reply to Fladiver64 :

Yep, that's the way it works.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

OK changes in challenge budget made, something else will have to give. I guess one of the issues I have is I want this car to have a life after challenge so I end up doing things that will help that cause but hurts the challenge because it takes away from other fun parts of the budget. That is a personal choice/observation, not a complaint. In the end, we are building a car we want to build and trying to make it stick to the challenge rules, and teach some kids how to have fun working on cars. The compromises will make us less competitive, but I don't think our crew has any real expectations of winning, they want to have fun and be able to drive the car they built. 

I am also working with them on following the rules as there are plenty of ways to cheat, for example, how would anyone know we replaced the timing belt, water pump, cam, and crank seals if we didn't say so. Easy to hide, and unfortunately many kids today are raised on the "if you don't get caught, its ok" school of integrity. What I asked the crew was,  would you sell your integrity for $250? got them to think about it in a different way.

So far we have been having fun working on the car, they have been working very well together and making compromises as a team so that everyone has a part in the car. For us Dads, we get to work with our boys and watch them grow as individuals and a team. 

In reply to Fladiver64 :

I had a friend point out how easy it would be to cheat, up to writing your own Craigslist ads. I countered with the fact that my son is involved and would see the cheating. I don't roll that way. The kids will enjoy it, no matter where they finish and understanding and building to the rules is a good puzzle to test them.