No one has mentioned the GREEN.

So, honest question- what makes the event so expensive to run, and is that something that can change?  If it's the track, is there another track that would work within striking distance?  The hotel?  The insurance?  Purely lack of attendees?  It's functionally an autocross (which gets away with $60 per entry) combined with a drag race (which gets away with sub-$50 test and tune nights) so clearly something is costing more than the usual events of these types.  Is there a way to offset whatever that is?

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

Most autocross events are run by volunteers, that accounts for a lot of free labor.

Drag strips usually have a blue million people for test and tune.  Also charging people to spectate helps cover costs.

In reply to KyAllroad :

Well there's two potential answers, right?  Asking for volunteers would probably go quite well, charging for spectators less so.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I've got a couple wild theories there...  I'm guessing that the overall operational cost of the drag strip and autocross events are fairly inelastic up to a certain number of entries.  So a $25 test and tune night works out well because 150 cars show up.  Only having 40 incurs similar expense, but get amortized amongst fewer people.  Same on the autocross. 

But I bet the biggest cost is that an autocross, for example, is planned and executed entirely by a volunteer workforce that covers their own expenses.  The Challenge takes hundreds of paid manhours to plan before the event and then they've got all that staff on-site through the event itself.  And those staff members are all staying in the hotel and eating in restaurants.  Maybe they're like F1 and can convince people to come and work for free for their profitable commercial enterprise, but more than likely the budget for the Challenge gets hit for the hours spent working, the hotel rooms, and at least 2 meals a day.  That stuff adds up quick when the entry free is only a max of $325. 

In a field of 40 cars. if everybody waited until the last minute, you're talking about $13,000.  Sure, there are extra meal ticket purchases, but let's assume for a moment that mostly is eaten up (no pun intended) by the caterers.  How many people come down from world HQ?  8?  I think that's a low number, but let's say 8 people show up on Wednesday and stay until Sunday morning, that's 4 nights and 5 days of meals.  We'll double-room them so 16 nights of hotel should be around $3,000 of that after taxes.  Take another $2000 for a $50 per-diem.  Now we have about $8k to rent the track, buy the insurance, make the trophies, give some to motorsportreg.com to handle the registrations, hire caterers, rent the ballroom, and pay the staff.  Granted, there's event sponsorship to help offset those costs, but that money is going to go pretty fast and you're not going to get full freight from every competitor - it's a substantial discount to register early.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

Trying to rent a track (any track) for a private event will be an eye opener as to how expensive the overhead is for this sort of endeavor. 

Two days of track rental, insurance, ambulance service (might be in the track rental), banquet hall rental........it all adds up. The entry fees for 39 cars this year @ less than $200 each likely doesn't come close.

Just brainstorming here... what if the autoX had a test and tune open to the public when the challenge cars aren't running, that charges normal autocross entry fees?  Same for the drag strip?  Basically ways to offset the costs without having to mess with the challenge format itself, and potentially a gateway to "hey those guys look like they're having fun" for the people who just came for the test and tune.

Or, combine it with some other existing event to offset the fees.  Hyperfest/gridlife/etc.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I thought there was an attempt to combine - or at least a discussion about combining - it with Hyperfest a couple years back and that idea went over like a lead balloon.  I don't remember why that was, off the top of my head, but I recall there were some big stumbling blocks to that.

Maybe I need to go back and look at the results form previous Challenges and see. The other thing I want to know is where in the rust belt of the north do you find a $600 Miata? Everything up here is $2000 or more and rusted to heck.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Just brainstorming here... what if the autoX had a test and tune open to the public when the challenge cars aren't running, that charges normal autocross entry fees?  Same for the drag strip?  Basically ways to offset the costs without having to mess with the challenge format itself, and potentially a gateway to "hey those guys look like they're having fun" for the people who just came for the test and tune.

I think that is why it looks like they are more welcoming to exhibition class cars.

Maybe I should sponsor an unlimited still 200tw (exhibition) class trophy for ultimate raw times. I'm not currently aware of an event that would require a drag race and autocross to be preformed on the same day.  I better start some other sort of business to use as the sponsor and be able to "sell" something with my advertising dollars. 

edit: looks like Holley sponsors some events like I mentioned and GRM is a sponsor of the autocross. 

In reply to wae :

I think it was a matter that hyperfest is not exactly a "family friendly" event.  If running it there is what it takes to keep it alive, though, so be it.

In reply to zordak :

That has been a problem from the start.  I've generally just accepted it and moved on. For 2017, I did luck into finding a $1900 Miata that had not yet seen an Ohio winter.  It was the backup car to the S10 I bought and trailered out of FL, but never made it to the challenge.  Most of the other challenge cars I've run have been midwestern cars, with the rust issues one would expect from them.  However, we have had winners that hail from the rust belt, so the handicap can be overcome.

In reply to zordak :

I have a Miata that I still drive regularly and I entered it in the 2017 Challenge. It's got a Moss/Jackson Racing supercharger kit on it and I paid $1000 on FB Marketplace in the summer of 2017. Since Covid struck deals like that have dried up in general, but occasional bargains will still appear. Last year I was given an NA Miata for free, which I passed on to another forum member. I'm in Michigan and I agree cheap cars are difficult to find, but not impossible.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

Cheap miatas are out there still.

A lot of you didn't read Tom's post about his reason.   This isn't to attract more competitors, it's to attract more money in sponsors.  If you want to attract more racers do away with pro drivers.  The math has been proven this won't lower cost for most entries in many posts in this thread already anyway.  This shouldn't go into effect until 2023 to be fair.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

Cheap miatas are out there still.

Damn!

Justjim75 said:

A lot of you didn't read Tom's post about his reason.   This isn't to attract more competitors, it's to attract more money in sponsors.  If you want to attract more racers do away with pro drivers.  The math has been proven this won't lower cost for most entries in many posts in this thread already anyway.  This shouldn't go into effect until 2023 to be fair.

Ok, you just made me go back and read all of Tom's posts again.
 

That's not what Tom said. He has been very clear that he wants more competitors (and also mentioned sponsors once on page 3, as a secondary income stream)

I think in a perfect world we'd get more competitors as well as more sponsors. And I'm assuming the former would lead to the latter. 

Does anybody know if it's possible to camp at the track? That might lower the expense for teams and increase the social aspect a bit. 

I know it's not currently allowed, but I'm not sure why or if the rule can be changed.

Is there a parts recycler sponsor? Seems to me that getting any parts supplier other than a recycler to sponsor this event would be difficult, given the budget cap.

car-part.com or LKQ.com seem like good fits.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

LKQ already sponsors at least one build. 

I guess the question needs to be asked honestly...

Does the $2000 Challenge generate editorial content of value to GRM?

Or are sponsors and marketers turned off by a bunch of cheap asses always trying to get something done for nothing working on a shoestring without spending money?

I suspect that's the core issue (and may not have a solution). 

In reply to SV reX :

One thing that was brought up in a conversation with me off the board was that we don't see as many articles on challenge cars any more.  Used to be multiple cars with their own feature article spread throughout the year, and that doesn't seem to be happening as often.

On a different note, for promoting the challenge, there doesn't need to be much directed at those of us on the board, as we bombard each other with it, so it likely needs to be focused on drawing in people who don't usually participate in online forums.

zordak said:

Maybe I need to go back and look at the results form previous Challenges and see. The other thing I want to know is where in the rust belt of the north do you find a $600 Miata? Everything up here is $2000 or more and rusted to heck.

It's certainly nothing special but it lived down in south Alabama so I road tripped down to pick it up.   Tank was rusted out so a Miata wrecker hooked me up with a good used one for $75.    Fluids, a slave cylinder, and a shifter rebuild make it feel pretty good.   A used top and the mentioned coilovers will have me sitting at $1200.   
 

it's kinda rough but gives me something to do with my time.

In reply to KyAllroad :

Don't forget to recoup the cost of a gecko at the cost from a local pet store! 

In reply to eastsideTim :

Unfortunately, that's kinda the point I was making. 
 

The event was conceived to create editorial content. I'm wondering if the content created still meets the needs of GRM and its target audience. 
 

It would make me sad, but if the event is not generating content they can use, them it doesn't make much business sense. 

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I put car-part.com on my car as a joke sponsor because I actually used their site to find a bumper for it. Not sure if enough people know about that site.