No one has mentioned the GREEN.

slowbird said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I put car-part.com on my car as a joke sponsor because I actually used their site to find a bumper for it. Not sure if enough people know about that site.

I use car-part for all of my FMV calculations 

I'm doing covid right now and hoping y'all taking my Hoosiers is a fever dream... 

Anybody make 275/35-15 street tires? 

When I try to describe what I feel the problem is I sound like a dick. 

Allow me to provide solutions. 

Simplify the rules:

No free tires. No FMV calculations. Agressive policing of the don't be a dick rule. 

ONE safety rule set. NHRA plus is-it-going-to-fall-over? The NHRA rule set for cars slower than 13.99 is laughable and not dissimilar from an autox tech.

At 11.48 the rules become a real rule book anybody who wants to go that fast should be prepared to and capable of building to. 

Five classes: 

Challenger class: Think the pointy end of the challenge field from years past. Production sheet metal or frame rails. $2000 plus $1000 in recoup. Let the boys play. 

Novice class: mild builds, drive your own car, less build book and concours expectations.

Complainers class: don't understand why your stock Miata can't win overall? This is for you. Take it too seriously, make a tire pressure adjustment after racking up 8 cones etc etc, go faster than 15.98 you'll be forced to wear a life vest. 200tw tires... No boosts of any kind. Win and you get thrown in the pool. 

Exhibition: I wanna see how an Indy car does at the challenge. Somebody make it happen... Not likely but this does give me an idea. Drag times are easy to quantify... Everybody but people on YouTube know a 12.20 1/4mi is fast and a 9.98 is really really fast. Autox times are much more situational. I imagine there's plenty of fast localish autocrossers who'd love some test and tune time. Gives us benchmarks and more potential pro drivers. 

Fun class: show up, bring whatever, get me drunk, make tacos, whatever y'all are fun to chill with. I can't leave anything alone enough to run a class like this. 

There's two camps that both think they hold the "spirit" of the challenge and they're both right. Anybody can go racing for no money is a great sentiment but racing doesn't mean winning, I'm always a little jealous of the dude with the Saturn hatchback never looks tired, never looks stressed, has his cooler and his chair hanging out having a good time. Never wins. Never complains. Just something to do on the weekend. 

Then there's me and the people like me go as fast as you possibly can with $2000. We all know what's involved the tools, time, knowledge, skills, and commitment. The engineering aspect of this event is far more interesting to me than anything else I want to see the crazy stuff. I want to build the crazy stuff

Probably the best argument I've heard yet for multiple classes.

Hope you feel better soon.

Byrneon27 said:

There's two camps that both think they hold the "spirit" of the challenge and they're both right. Anybody can go racing for no money is a great sentiment but racing doesn't mean winning, I'm always a little jealous of the dude with the Saturn hatchback never looks tired, never looks stressed, has his cooler and his chair hanging out having a good time. Never wins. Never complains. Just something to do on the weekend. 

Then there's me and the people like me go as fast as you possibly can with $2000. We all know what's involved the tools, time, knowledge, skills, and commitment. The engineering aspect of this event is far more interesting to me than anything else I want to see the crazy stuff. I want to build the crazy stuff

 

This is what I was saying in the other thread on this subject.  Which of these is the GRM target?  I think one generates better magazine material, one generates much higher attendance numbers.

They are not mutually exclusive.  Its a great reason to have an unlimited class and a gastropod/budget/mild/street/whatever class.

In reply to ProDarwin :

"Weld" and "No Weld" class.

Okay, we're back from the holidays, and once again discussing the future of the $2000 Challenge. I can't reply to every single point individually, but did read everything and really appreciate all the feedback. 

Here's a weird idea I wanted to float to the crowd:

$2000 Challenge entries, and Status Quo entries. Feel free to come up with better/simpler/more entertaining names, just being as descriptive as possible. 

$2000 Challenge entries enter under the 2021 ruleset. 

Status Quo entries replace exhibition, and don't have a budget cap. 

Can the $2000 Challenge cars beat their higher-dollar competition? Awards in multiple categories to the car that wins. After all, it is called the $2000 Challenge.

What do you all think? And would each of you bring one "normal" friend to compete against you in their normal car?

You mean $2000 challenge cars competing directly against no budget builds? At first blush I quite like the idea Tom. 

I can dig it.  Are Status Quo cars in or out of the concours?  I vote out.

In reply to Lof8 - Andy :

They'd be out. The concours format/venue can't support more than 50 cars. 

Love the idea.

AS far as a friend? If I had a 2 car trailer I would bring a status Quo car and the $2000 car.  Eventually I'm going to have to run the MG vs the LMP360 Head to Head and the challenge would be an excellent venue to do it.   Anyone from Central Illinois want to borrow a Rotary Tube Framed MG for the challenge next year?

I wouldn't mind bringing my truck to run head-to-head against the Bradley, but I think this concept may have a built in expiration date.

Once folks start building no-budget cars specifically for this Challenge, how long does it take for $2000 competitors to lose interest in getting their butts kicked? 

I think we could tweak the prize package over time to incentivize $2000 Challenge builds. Things like "$10 if you win fastest drag pass in normal car, $100 if you win in a Challenge car."

In reply to gumby :

I'm also not sure you will get people bringing purpose built challengers with no budget. This would probably be veiwed as an "extra" event for a car built for something else.

So you spent $35k on a car with the sole purpose of winning a competition of cars built for $2k? 

I don't think many people want to answer yes to that question. If someone does, we should cross that bridge when we get there.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm also not sure you will get people bringing purpose built challengers with no budget.

I imagine that's similar to what the founders thought about tube chassis, or max effort production frame builds, or 9sec drag passes too.

If the situation evolved unchecked for long enough, those no-budget builders wouldn't be concerned with beating $2000 competitors, they would be battling each other. This is the motorsports way.

Incentivizing $2000 builds will help. I'd just rather not see a potential negative outcome and not call it out.

I'm not sure I really like the idea but I don't hate it either.

How about getting various guest stars to do the no budget cars to try to beat the challenge legal ones? Could be a great way to get the name out there more

This would mean the Nelsons could bring something other than that slow 9.06" Sunbird.......like, say.....a 1000 HP Nova they happen to have laying around.....

After some additional reflection I like the Idea even more, and I'm not sure it would need a sunset clause.   I don't think people will really build High budget cars dedicated to the event because those cars already exist.

Remove the budget from the Challenge and you have a unique event that combines 2 of the hottest things in the enthusiast marketplace.  Run What you Brung low rules Autox events (Ultima Challenge, Driveautox, Goodguys, SCCA CAM) are huge right now as are Street oriented Drag events (Ziptie Drags, Hot Rod Power Tour, Drag Week, etc).  The challenge format allows for cars from both worlds to participate and sponsors know that the owners of cars that run those events spend $$ which can't hurt the buisiness case of running the event moving forward.    Add in the car show aspect of the Concourse and you have something that could appeal to everyone.  

It would seem you could run the event where everyone does the dynamic events Saturday then on Sunday the $2000 competitors go under the pavilion for the traditional concourse and the Status Quo cars get parked and displayed as a "cars and Coffee" type event.     I suspect once word got out about the event in future years you may need to limit entries to the status quo but always accept entries that qualify for $2000 class.  

I also would imagine that GRM Readers and Editors would salivate at the content opportunities if some of these real big budget builds from these existing events showed up.   I know I would love to see them in person and get the chance to chat with the owners/builders.   

Can we call the Status Quo group Outlaw?

In reply to maschinenbau :

I actually like this if it's expanded to other forms of constructive/additive fabrication (i.e. fiberglass layups, brazing, 3d printing). 

Doing fab work is just way more time and money intensive than bolt-ons, but both types of builds should have editorial value to GRM.

It's such an elegant idea that it'll never work.

Sounds like this proposal is more like the UTCC but with recognition of a bunch of whackjobs trying to build their cars for under $2000. The danger is that it turns into just another variant of the Optima thing, although we would see  a few megadollar Pro Touring cars getting their butts kicked by Miatas with paint jobs applied with a roller. I have to say I find the UTCC far less interesting than the Challenge because of the level of checkbook engineering involved.

I like/hate this. 

Like it because its a showcase of what a challenge car can be, and how it doesn't take a ton of money to be competitive. Which is the whole freaking point of the challenge. 

However, it turns into a discouraging proposition as i have campaigned my challenge car locally for a few years, and been getting my ass kicked by cars with more expensive hardware. Which means id be spending a lot of money to come to the challenge to get my ass kicked on a national level by cars with no self imposed budget cap.

I really think the execution of this is what is either going tosave or ruin the challenge. 

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

I think you'll be surprised by what you can beat!

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

I think you'll be surprised by what you can beat!

I dig the idea of having some bad fast checkbook built cars come I don't see why we couldn't bring something to represent the Honda crowd 

I had another thought... Nobody currently winning "needs" a welder/parts washer/whatever whatever. Prizes are cool but we aren't making a profit from this event. Consider taking a page from the Lemons book make the big prize for winning Fun class. Those of us who care supremely about going fast are going to do that regardless. Maybe a bigger prize package is the bait to bring new blood in.