No one has mentioned the GREEN.

If the primary goal/requirement is getting more competitors, opening up the event to cars other than $2000 Challenge cars makes great sense. You'll get people who have a running/driving car that will be excited to have a chance to bring it out to play.

In general, as others have noted, this seems like mainly a marketing issue. I live in Gainesville and often feel like I am one of ~6 people that even know that the event exists - and that's among my 'car' friends. Jacksonville, Orlando and Tampa are all within a ~2 hour drive of Gainesville. You need to saturate those markets with advertising in order to attract 'local' competitors. It's exponentially cheaper/easier to bring a car from ~2 hours away than ~1,000 miles away. If you could get 10 entries from each city, problem solved.

EDIT: There is a decent monthly cars and coffee here now. If ya'll want to send me some $2000 Challenge marketing material, I will happily hand it out to every person who attends at each month's event. I've volunteered in the past to be a 'man on the ground' in Gainesville and the offer still stands!

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I think it'll bring in at least a few more entrants, but it may be even more discouraging to those who were thinking of doing a first time build. 

Assuming each class will have its own overall ranking of winners, I'm guessing the new class will consist of a mix of previous challenge entrants bringing their personal non-challenge project cars, various SCCA Mod class cars worked up to be drag strip legal, some drag racers who want to see what their car does in corners, and a few dedicated entrants who will be completely reconfiguring their suspensions between autox and drag.  Pretty much an automotive biathlon.  Could make for some good copy, but might end up overtaking and killing the budget aspect of the challenge if it catches on enough.

If it happens, I'm still game to come down this year, and I guess this would give me another avenue if I don't come up with a cheap car to enter, assuming I have something up and running in October

I would simply stop bothering building $2000 challenge cars and show up with whatever my current play car is if I feel like coming.  The caveat here is while it's fun to show up and go fast for 2k it's more fun to give myself some wiggle room and not compromise when it gets close to $2000.  I love the people more than the event itself, and if i could show up in my $2500 or $3000 car and not have to deal with concours I would pick that every time

eastsideTim said:

  Pretty much an automotive biathlon. 

I kinda love this description of the Challenge

I realize the challenge occurs right after solo nats so out of season but could GRM set up a tire test or similar editorial exercise during the challenge. Kill two birds with one track rental? 

Autox test and tune? 

Ask Hoosier or their parent company for sponsorship? 

I just wanna race man!

Whatever it comes down to I'll have fun and my gauntlet improves for next year, FTD in the autocross and sub 12.5 drag.

I would say that people/teams should drive their own cars though.  If budgets are getting left behind, so should having a "pro" driver at the wheel.   They are cool guys but it felt out of step with "show us what you can do" when it's someone else showing us.

In reply to KyAllroad :

I disagree with pro driver going away. Im a builder first that is just learning to drive. Hell, i just got my first ever trophy at me last autocross.  Im not a good driver. Therefore, the challenge to me is as a builder. The solo nats (which i have no desire to go to) are for drivers. 

Id say keep pro drivers for challenge budget cars. Not the whole field. 

I like the sound of the Unlimited class if it helps the event.  I would love to bring my truck to the event and see how it stacks up against stock miatas and the wacky $2000 builds.

Thinking out loud here, for the unlimited cars maybe there is a "Spirit of the Event" caveat.  Don't show up with a Nationals level prepped Corvette but if you want to bring ratty LS swapped minitruck with C4 suspension or something else wacky that the collective braintrust here has dreamed up go for it.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

It's an interesting idea worth considering. 
 

I have 2 questions (Plus sub questions) that I think are critical to the success of the event...

- WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO ATTRACT?  Does the Challenge generate useful editorial content to you, or have you outgrown it?  Are stories about cheapass cars valuable to GRM's business plan?

- ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY IT TAKES TO MARKET TO THESE PEOPLE YOU WANT TO ATTRACT?  As Dyntorace as noted, there has been no local marketing money spent. It has brought in exactly how much was spent- nothing. Which of these new entrants is valuable enough to GRM's business plan to spend the marketing budget needed to attract them?

Tom, you made the case for the business perspective, but you haven't made the case for the existence of the $2000 Challenge at all. Does the idea still have merit, or has it run its course?

Don't hang on to it just because you like the people or the event. Let's be honest about the business model.  The people will figure out a way to continue to be involved regardless of whether the event continues or not. Whatever you host, we'll come. 

What you are describing sounds fun, but also silly.  If the reality is that a UTCC Automotive Biathalon will better suit your needs and the Challenge does not, let's build it!  If the Challenge no longer offers a useful model for editorial content for your business model, let's not drag it on forever.  Budgetless builds will always wonder why the berkeley  the $2000 cars are in attendance.  YOU need to be able to explain it in a simple elevator pitch.  If you can't, then it's a compromised event without clear purpose regardless of what you call it, and it WILL NOT SURVIVE.

To be fair, there is plenty of magazine space used in advertising the challenge. And that probably isn't cheap in opportunity cost (or real printing cost).

So it's not zero advertising spend.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

To be fair, there is plenty of magazine space used in advertising the challenge. And that probably isn't cheap in opportunity cost (or real printing cost).

So it's not zero advertising spend.

Good point - so if GRM is trying to expand entries within their current subscriber base, it's a matter of updating the ads for the new class.  To draw in competitors from outside is what would cost more money/effort.

To be fair, I was quoting the local guy:

dyintorace said:

I live in Gainesville and often feel like I am one of ~6 people that even know that the event exists - and that's among my 'car' friends. Jacksonville, Orlando and Tampa are all within a ~2 hour drive of Gainesville. You need to saturate those markets with advertising in order to attract 'local' competitors. It's exponentially cheaper/easier to bring a car from ~2 hours away than ~1,000 miles away. If you could get 10 entries from each city, problem solved.

EDIT: There is a decent monthly cars and coffee here now. If ya'll want to send me some $2000 Challenge marketing material, I will happily hand it out to every person who attends at each month's event. I've volunteered in the past to be a 'man on the ground' in Gainesville and the offer still stands!

I don't get the logic. You are saying ads in GRM should be used to attract new people who don't read GRM. That's nuts. 
 

He offered something free. It hasn't been acted on. 
 

Dyintorace is a local, and happens to be a salesman in an automotive related field. A good one. I trust his judgement... 

I think expanding entries among current readership is a great idea.

I think expanding entires among the local car scene is also an important one that should not be overlooked.  Especially for Status Quo entries.  It's MUCH easier for them to show up than ANYONE else.  No prep, no travel, no costs.  Just get up on Saturday and run down to the local track you are already familiar with.

I've been reading along but haven't commented until now.  I've attended the Challenge once in 2019, driving from central Indiana.

I don't always agree with SV Rex, but he is spot on.  The effort and expense is huge to come from this far away.

If GRM just needs more entries at the Challenge, advertising around Central Florida is the way to go.  If the event were within a five hour drive of me, I'd be there EVERY year.  Your FL locals have to know about the challenge before they can attend.  Make sure they know about it. (Advertising/ Marketing)

Another point echoed throughout this thread is the rules.  I think they should be greatly simplified.

I try to explain to my car buddies that we race $2000 cars, except tires don't count in the budget. They understand that, but wait:  Oh, you can also spend an additional $1000 if you sell some parts from your original (or parts lot) purchase.  Oh, you can also trade parts to get what you need.  Oh, you can trade parts to yourself as long as you use Fair Market Value (hand them a list of approved methods to determine FMV).   Then I still have to explain the following:

• Fiberglass, 3D printed, Carbon fiber = materials not molds
• homogeneous parts lot exceptions / calculations - Relative Retail value etc.
• Rebates are allowed
• parts shipping bust be included, but not taxes
• Core Charges on Junkyard parts

Then I still have to explain the budget exempt items for safety.

Sorry, they lost interest and call B.S. on the whole event.

Overall I think I like the idea of having an "outlaw/unlimited" class, but I think the $2000 class still needs the budget rules slimmed down.

Elevator pitch was a good example. I know it's MUCH harder to build a competitive car for straight $2000 than the current rules, but it wold be more concise and more impressive. 

K.I.S.S. 

So, hypothetically, let's say we close the budget loopholes. How does that impact the cars already built for them? 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

For me, the no recoup or trading would outlaw this year and next years cars. My set of tires this year was legit free, as well as the brakes. 

Tom Suddard said:

So, hypothetically, let's say we close the budget loopholes. How does that impact the cars already built for them? 

About the same as eliminating Hoosiers for autoX.

Rule makers face an impossible task if they try to please everyone. I don't envy your position.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Define "close the budget loopholes".

if you eliminate self-trades, I'm around $3500.

if you eliminate all the free tires / suspension / brakes / safety items, I'm around $5500.

and if you do those things, I have to tell my wife how much money I've got tied up in my $2000 challenge car.

I don't care what the rules end up being because I'll still try and kick all the shiny at half budget.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

The LMP360 is at 2630 real money.  It could not attend at $2000 with no "loopholes".

Recoupe shouldn't go away it's not really a loophole it just makes sense to be able to sell stuff off you don't use.  Does it really make sense that I scrapped 2 cars for what I paid for them but they stay in the budget?

Harnesses and basic safety equipment seem like a reasonable exemption to keep.  

I could probably make the rest of the exemptions work and still build the car.  But probably not the way I want to finish it.  It would probably just be what showed up this year maybe painted.  

Tom Suddard said:

So, hypothetically, let's say we close the budget loopholes. How does that impact the cars already built for them? 

That's very nice of you (and I really appreciate it), but honestly it's not really your job. Don't run an event to be nice.
 

Build an event that meets the needs of your organization, and create a rule set that will encourage THOSE cars. Then let the participants decide to show up or not.

The specific answer to your question...

- My MINI Cooper S JCW? Would still be able to attend with no loopholes. If tires were free, it would be a strong contender for FTD in the autocross.  If no trading, I'd have to run the factory wheels. It would still be a top 5 autocrosser. If tires are not free, it would struggle to be in the top 10 (and I wouldn't be excited about bringing it)

- My LS/ T56 NA Miata?  If no recoup, I'd have to drop the T56 and use an auto. If no trading, I'd have to use truck heads on the LS instead of the sweet 906's. This would not be a car I want to own, so I would probably drop out.  I'd sell the pieces and make money.  It would be nice to get back my garage space.

- Future... I've played the Challenge game with no loopholes, and enjoyed it. Perhaps more than currently. I would participate, but I would definitely NOT bring anything complicated. Simple, run whatchu brung. No build threads, no fabrication, no motor swaps.  I'd buy an $1800 car and a can of paste wax every couple years and bring it for the fun. That's all.

The rules define what editorial content shows up. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Define "close the budget loopholes".

if you eliminate self-trades, I'm around $3500.

if you eliminate all the free tires / suspension / brakes / safety items, I'm around $5500.

and if you do those things, I have to tell my wife how much money I've got tied up in my $2000 challenge car.

Are you arguing to keep the budget allowances or throw them out (I think the former but this actually seems like a better argument for the latter)? 

Fdat as run last october is $2002.51 even when I include my tires, brake and safety items. That does include $1051.61 of true sold recoup (of which I stopped selling because it exceeded the threshold, but I could sell probably $300 more). So $3054.12 if I can't recoup.

You already know how I feel about fmv self trade shenanigans.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

My goal was to abuse the spirit of the self-trade and other loopholey rules, without violating the letter of those rules, to such an extent that Tom would have no choice but to eliminate those rules. Looks like I should have built my car more quickly.

in other words, in the short term I want those rules to stay, but in the long term I want those rules to go. No free anything. No self trades. And no pro-rating bulk purchases, which is difficult to define but I'd put a line in the sand at something like 10x the quantity you use for your build.

i can't get MonZora under budget without (1) keeping the 2021 rules or (2) starting over.