No one has mentioned the GREEN.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I completely agree with you about bulk purchases.  (and the rest)

Tom Suddard said:

So, hypothetically, let's say we close the budget loopholes. How does that impact the cars already built for them? 

Give it a year's notice before the change. 

Builds currently under construction have to hurry up to qualify under current rules.  After that, they can still compete, but have to do it in the Exhibition or Outlaw class or whatever else you come up with.

Here's another thought to consider.  How about making the event the "Budget Challenge" not the "$2000 Challenge"

Give awards for $1000 budget Cars,  $2000 budget Cars,  $3000 budget Cars and $4000 budget cars etc.

Competitors will still have to build on the cheap, but if they aren't very good at scoring deals or have to buy some parts to finish the build, they don't automatically get disqualified, they just have to compete "up a budget level"

I've seen a lot of builds abandoned on here because someone went over budget.

In reply to Indy - Guy :

Those are good ideas

Indy - Guy said:

Here's another thought to consider.  How about making the event the "Budget Challenge" not the "$2000 Challenge"

Give awards for $1000 budget Cars,  $2000 budget Cars,  $3000 budget Cars and $4000 budget cars etc.

Not a bad idea. 

Removing free tires, free safety items, and recoup are BIG changes that most of us "builder types" would like at least 2 years to prepare for (2023 Challenge at the earliest).

Recoup - keeping it makes sense, is on-theme with the Challenge, and easy to enforce. 

Self-trades and FMV - could potentially be eliminated, or ONLY special approved by GRM staff (with polling of the community to establish a FMV). I personally dislike self-trades and most FMV calculations. It's just lazy and non-committal. 

Tires in the budget - I'm cool with that for future events (not this build cycle), just realize it effectively lowers the build budget and speed of all entries. Not necessarily a bad thing, and could make for good content like "cheap used slicks vs new 200TW tires - which one gives Challenge builders the edge?" Really want to level the field w.r.t tires? Require cars to drive from hotel to racetrack - legally. If you buy 200TW tires, problem solved. Your caged contraption on slicks? Set aside some budget for a cheap set of steelies and turn signals. Just an idea.

Safety items - same as cages. If you go fast enough to need it, it goes in the budget. But this requires actual ENFORCEMENT of safety rules, which right now there is basically none. Especially with brakes, lug studs, and seat belts/harness. If you put those in the budget, we WILL cheap on them so be prepared to inspect and disqualify cars. 

I like indy guys suggestion. It would allow us max recoup guys to stay in the game, as well as us that were max recoup and loophole/exemption guys. Like the neon would show up in the 3k class, the amc probably 3k, miata in 4k, etc. May be a good compromise and transition year change. Cars that used the exemptions/recoup get grandfathered in at 3k so they can still come and compete, and its not really a budget hit because thats what we ACTUALLY spent maxing out recoup and expenditures. 

I'll second the "budget tiers" idea. Imagine how legendary it would be to watch the same car win $1k class, then next year it's turbocharged and wins in $2k class, and the following year it's on slicks in the $3k class... That's a good way to allow tires and safety items back into the budget, while giving out more trophies and prizes across a wider variety of entrants. 

I like the drive from the hotel idea. Now that is creative. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

"Drive from hotel to track - legally" has much larger implications than just some road-legal tires and turn signals. I like it as a general requirement but I don't like that it might eliminate things like the LMP360 or Zoomboni etc.

as for recoup, I'd like to see the limit increased to $2000, while keeping the $2000 maximum you can spend on any single line item. Recoup is more real-world than my interpretation of self-trades.

Indy - Guy said:

I've been reading along but haven't commented until now.  I've attended the Challenge once in 2019, driving from central Indiana.

I don't always agree with SV Rex, but he is spot on.  The effort and expense is huge to come from this far away.

 

If GRM just needs more entries at the Challenge, advertising around Central Florida is the way to go.  If the event were within a five hour drive of me, I'd be there EVERY year.  Your FL locals have to know about the challenge before they can attend.  Make sure they know about it. (Advertising/ Marketing)

Imagine coming from North Idaho and you can see why I haven't made it yet lol

With the car and making it a road trip for fun I think 8k was a low number for me

In reply to maschinenbau :

Driving legally to the event becomes an uneven playing field. 
 

They'd have to be titled, tagged, and insured. That's a high bar for a race car, and varies by state. Your Europa could be tagged (because GA would tag nearly ANYTHING), but it wouldn't be street legal in many other states (and perhaps not FL).  You have no title. That wouldn't work in many states. 
 

In reply to SV reX :

And on top of that, what kind of liability would that open GRM up to when somebody pulls out in front of one of us and there's a crash, and a local billboard lawyer gets involved in seeking damages against anyone / everyone.

Different budget tiers is a good idea, but I would cap it at absolute max 4k, 3k preferably. Really without the low budget this isn't the Challenge so without a smallish budget it's useless to continue it. Heavily incentivize the lower budget winners though, you want people to be drawn in by a possible figure and pulled in by just how low you can go.

I'm not a fan of no budget unless it's like ....a special guest star sort of thing like the drags last year.

I'm not saying I'm the greatest businessman or marketing genius but coming up with an plan for what you want to accomplish is huge here. Personally I was under the impression that you guys wanted to stay small and weird until all this came out. I also figured that the Challenge was lucrative enough to make everyone happy. Really the Challenge is leaps and bounds the most unique thing about Grassroots, I would really really reeeeeereeeeeeaaaallllyyyy lean into it. Most people I tell about it are very intrigued by it but have never heard of it.

I have $485.66 in exempt spending. I'd still be legal, with $500 to spare, but I'd be less likely to keep the car focused with the challenge in mind, as it would limit what else I could do with it as when things age out and need stock replacement, it would eat away at the budget and possibly result in me having to remove some bits for the event. 

Removing exemptions is a double edged sword. Yes it simplifies the rules, however one of the other hurdles that's been identified regarding the challenge is people wanting to be able to utilize a vehicle that they put the effort into building and having the space devoted to it if it's a one trick pony for them. 

I understand the concern about rules being complicated, but preparing a vehicle is complicated and the SCCA is the largest autocrossing sanctioning body in the country, by far, and have you ever perused their rule book? We should just all be thankful that Tom isn't thanking us for our input. 

I think Indy- Guy's tiered solution solves almost every problem. Inflation, believability, increasing attendance, even tires and FMV. 
 

Budget Challenge

Tiers- as many as GRM sees fit. 
NO exemptions (including tires)

NO safety item exemptions (but YES safety requirements)

Recoup- 50% of budget tier

NO self trading

NO FMV

NO exhibition class.  They are simply competing in a higher budget tier.

 
Simple. Clean. 
 

Let's race. 

SV reX said:

I think Indy- Guy's tiered solution solves almost every problem. Inflation, believability, increasing attendance, even tires and FMV. 
 

Budget Challenge

Tiers- as many as GRM sees fit. 
NO exemptions (including tires)

NO safety item exemptions (but YES safety requirements)

Recoup- 50% of budget tier

NO self trading

NO FMV

NO exhibition class.  They are simply competing in a higher budget tier.

 
Simple. Clean. 
 

Let's race. 

I like it.  

Let's race.

With no tire exemption and no recoup my Corolla would be out . I'm around $1600 with $430 of recoup and no autocross tires yet. The car is still well away from running condition. I could resurrect the Miata, but I already know it will suck at concourse, so I likely wouldn't bother.

Edit: I'd have to see a rules set and see if I could squeak the Corolla in by removing stuff from the car and showing up with one set of tires and wheels instead of two. Some parts choices would be reversed to focus on one discipline only, I think.

I say this not having attended a Challenge yet and obviously not knowing how much has been spent on advertising nor where that advertising has been but...

I know with pretty good certainty that the literal only place I ever heard of the Challenge before becoming active on the forum here was a passing comment from Rennie when I was in college down in FL. At that point in my life, spending $2,000 on a second car let alone one for a one-weekend event wasn't even in my realm of possibilities. I have been pretty engaged in automotive things since forever - active on forums, car meets, reading magazines, etc. and the only place I hear about this extremely cool and unique event is through GRM - and to me that means the magazine and this forum (and Rennie). I see that as the primary issue with attendance. Advertisement seems to be directed at those who already know. 

Could be totally wrong but that's how it appears to me. 

SV reX said:

I think Indy- Guy's tiered solution solves almost every problem. Inflation, believability, increasing attendance, even tires and FMV. 
 

Budget Challenge

Tiers- as many as GRM sees fit. 
NO exemptions (including tires)

NO safety item exemptions (but YES safety requirements)

Recoup- 50% of budget tier

NO self trading

NO FMV

NO exhibition class.  They are simply competing in a higher budget tier.

 
Simple. Clean. 
 

Let's race. 

This seems great. Maybe you also skew the scoring to award more points to lower tier fast cars? In other words, faster autocross in the $1000 tier gets higher points than fastest autocross time in the $2000 tier and so on. At least to crown the overall winner. 

I'm focused on event format, not advertising, because we're promoting the challenge to an audience of about 5 million people with our own assets. Rather than expand the marketing, we need to change the event to attract a few more of these people. 

In reply to dyintorace :

Put the dollar value directly in the points system- divide dynamic and concours points by vehicle cost, no classes and no cap.

Yeah, the street legal parade wouldn't be fair, or feasible. 

Paul's ruleset is sounding very appealing.

But I do like AC's "full recoup" idea. Not only is it truly in the spirit of Grassroots, it's also a good compromise for banning FMV/self-trades/other budget shenanigans. It would also help offset tires and safety items being put back in the budget. 

Overall winner...

Create a pool from:

Participant's choice- participants vote one from each tier. 
 

Dynamic score- fastest dynamic car from each tier. 
 

Judge's choice- judges select top 3 concours cars from all tiers. 
 

Overall winners are top three Editor's Choice from the above pool. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to dyintorace :

Put the dollar value directly in the points system- divide dynamic and concours points by vehicle cost, no classes and no cap.

Good call. Easy and makes sense. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to dyintorace :

Put the dollar value directly in the points system- divide dynamic and concours points by vehicle cost, no classes and no cap.

Oh dang, at first glance I really like that!