AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:How about a Grandfather Clause: Any cars with a continuous build thread for the 2019 Challenge and still not complete due to [reasons] may enter one time under the 2019 rules.
for the record, i did not prompt this post!
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Mr_Asa said:maschinenbau said:we talk about it a lot more than it deserves to be talked about. There is nothing to fix.
I think everyone is anticipating the year that guy shows up and berks it up for everyone and is trying to get ahead of it.
Perhaps because I announced several years ago that I was going to be that guy.
Still waiting for you to show up and actually be that guy.
PS: Said with love, of course.
I remember Tom said that all Kia's were legal and not subject to budget restrictions. There was complete agreement amongst all there.
In reply to bobzilla :
I seem to recall that, too. And I'm bummed that I didn't get a chance to check out your car.
Thanks again for making the trip.
What would the thoughts be on budget flexibility such that autocross wheels could be removed from budget and replaced with drag wheels and tires for the evening session. I get that most folks use their budget exempt set of tires on their autocross tires, and that drag tires would need to be budgeted, but if the wheels themselves could be swapped out it could help give an extra $50 or so to keep the drags safer.
For example, in a previous car I ran a set of $75 c4 wheels and a7's. I also had stock front wheels and all season tires and a set of $110 drag radials on c5 wheels . The issue was that I did not have $110 left in budget to run the drag radials, but if I had the $75 removed from my autocross setup I could have run with a safer and faster drag radial setup. I understand that is the price to pay to be fast, but it seems like a potential compromise to combat inflation and allow more competitors to get off a7's for the drags.
CTeo said:What would the thoughts be on budget flexibility such that autocross wheels could be removed from budget and replaced with drag wheels and tires for the evening session. I get that most folks use their budget exempt set of tires on their autocross tires, and that drag tires would need to be budgeted, but if the wheels themselves could be swapped out it could help give an extra $50 or so to keep the drags safer.
Honestly, considering the issues with running AutoX tires on a drag strip, I'm wondering if there's a safety issue that could be addressed with drag tires Vs AutoX tires.
I'm very much digging (no pun intended) the idea of the no prep lane. We've had traction issues on and off with the prepped surface for many years. I would also eliminate the water in the burnout box on the no prep lane... everyone that with experience was driving around it and those that did not were slinging a bit of water down the track.
I also support adding drag wheels to the exempt list for safety and the ability to maybe fit drag tires into the budget.
I'm OK with May, the average high temps in Gainesviile are around 87 in May, but also second bringing rain tires as a backup.
I never really looked in to the self trading scheme. So for example if I have a set of Strange axles in a Ford 9" with a locking diff that I got in the 90's for $1,000, but I trade it with myself for uh, I dunno $50? Even though it's now worth about $4,000, it doesn't go against my budget? I'm seriously uneducated and inexperienced on the subject. If someone can do some splaining on the subject I'm all ears. Easy to understand outrageous examples very much appreciated!
Thanks to everyone for such an amazing event. I love that I can bring my kids, family and friends for the weekend and not worry one bit about what they will be exposed to except for a good time and great people.
Was Saturday's drag strip track conditions an anomaly? It seems there are whole classes of cars drag racing on street tires all over the country. Do you change the rules because of one situation? When car mags do road tests they don't change tires for each phase... It seems to me in the original spirit of the Challenge one set of tires is enough.
Let me say up front, my opinion doesn't count. Just saying.
A7's seemed exceptionally squirrelly on the drag strip on Saturday, but as far as I know, people have still run a7's for years on the strip at the challenge and as a result they have times that reflect that decision.
It sounds like the drag issue had a LOT to do with hitting the dew point after the sun went down. The track was just wet and nothing was really hooking.
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:Was Saturday's drag strip track conditions an anomaly? It seems there are whole classes of cars drag racing on street tires all over the country. Do you change the rules because of one situation? When car mags do road tests they don't change tires for each phase... It seems to me in the original spirit of the Challenge one set of tires is enough.
Let me say up front, my opinion doesn't count. Just saying.
If I remember, drag tires are nice and soft in the sidewall, while autocross are nice and stiff. As a result autocross tires on a prepped surface can get kinda squirrely.
There might be whole classes of cars drag racing all over the country, but there are probably a very small minority that do so on autocross tires.
hobiercr said:It sounds like the drag issue had a LOT to do with hitting the dew point after the sun went down. The track was just wet and nothing was really hooking.
Was also discussed, but there's not a lot that can be done about that without affecting drag times.
Might be another thing that could be affected by the move to May? Colder weather means more dew in the evening.
I prefer the Friday/Saturday format over the Saturday/Sunday we did this year. Our normally 3 hour tow was about 5-1/2 hours on the way home Sunday evening. :/
maschinenbau said:Let me try to remember:
- Tire classes was somewhat confusing and hard to follow, especially during awards, but overall was well-received. GTW class was particularly small and ideas were proposed join GTN and GTW, and just have 200tw vs unlimited, but more tire categories means more awards and therefore prize money handed out...so be careful what you wish for. No changes expected.
- Autocross work groups and shift changes were too tight for the budget cars. Overall the autocross ran later than schedule and kind of unorganized Ideas proposed for getting more dedicated course workers and also to help staff run the event. Ideas like paying extra for registration so you don't have to work the course, or discounts if you bring extra workers with your team (looking at GT college students...). Adding volunteer/paid/discount registration work assignments related to running the event and helping staff was also a well-received idea to look into.
- Help/coaching/orientation needed for newbies, both autocross and drags. Too many repeated DNF's from missed gates and time wasted learning how to drag race. Also assigning work positions based on experience... lots of bad rookie radio chaos.
- Date change likely. May '23 was proposed by Tom, but nothing official yet.
- Hagerty cars and coffee was cool. Excited to see that grow.
- Possibly a no-prep drag lane, since the autocross and street tires may actually launch better. Lots of complaint about track conditions, but mostly from people without drag tires. To be discussed with track.
- Inflation was discussed, and possibly increasing the $2000 to something greater. It was debated that free tires helps offset that, and also good performance parts have gotten cheaper (ebay turbos, DIY ecu's, etc), and cars are still getting faster, so no changes expected there for a long time.
I remembered some more
Re: Possible Date Change
Weather in October: https://weatherspark.com/m/16986/10/Average-Weather-in-October-in-Gainesville-Florida-United-States
Weather in May: https://weatherspark.com/m/16986/5/Average-Weather-in-May-in-Gainesville-Florida-United-States
rich911s said:I'm very much digging (no pun intended) the idea of the no prep lane. We've had traction issues on and off with the prepped surface for many years. I would also eliminate the water in the burnout box on the no prep lane... everyone that with experience was driving around it and those that did not were slinging a bit of water down the track.
I also support adding drag wheels to the exempt list for safety and the ability to maybe fit drag tires into the budget.
I'm OK with May, the average high temps in Gainesviile are around 87 in May, but also second bringing rain tires as a backup.
I never really looked in to the self trading scheme. So for example if I have a set of Strange axles in a Ford 9" with a locking diff that I got in the 90's for $1,000, but I trade it with myself for uh, I dunno $50? Even though it's now worth about $4,000, it doesn't go against my budget? I'm seriously uneducated and inexperienced on the subject. If someone can do some splaining on the subject I'm all ears. Easy to understand outrageous examples very much appreciated!
Self trade you need establish a fair market value of each part you have. Example, I purchased a 2007 chevy express as a doner for my engine. I paid $1000 for the Van, I already recouped $1000 max on my budget. Instead of recouping more value which isn't allowed, I go on car-part.com and find 3 adds to establish FMV for all the parts I have leftover rear end $600, seats $50 each, steering wheel $30 ect. After establishing all of these FMV I then "trade myself for parts that I already have" using the same methodology. Camshaft $300, valve springs $200, turbo $300 ect...
Using the FMV trading method between my RX7 and Chevy express I could easily FMV trade myself $10k+ worth of parts. Good news is I don't have $10k to use on a challenge car.
edit: FMV trade scenario is just one of the "loopholes" that could be used that would upset people. I'll need to trade myself for that LS3 T56 that I've always wanted for my build. I'll even tell my wife it was a trade, they basically gave it to me.
Next I'll buy a shifter cart and cut up my spitfire frame rails to add ballast. But I'll have "stock" frame rails, allowing it within the rules.
The one issue with the tire classes and drag tires is the tread wear on any drag radial is 0, automatically putting anyone running drag tires into the unlimited tire class. Maybe the tire classes should be based on the autocross tires only. In reality this event has never been a drag racing event, very limited number have entrants have ever run under a 12 second 1/4 mile.
In reply to rich911s :
Self trade ...
My car came with extra trim. I have a "used" carb sitting on a non Challenge car. Instead of me using a $300 new carb I go on eBay and FMV the trim using the three highest prices I can find. I then FMV the carb on eBay using the three lowest prices I can find. Now I have a free to budget carb. Then consider that I also got a spare W58 trans with the car. Now you can see where I can really abuse it.
How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
^ Perfect. Love it and simple rules are the best
AC better get his behind in gear.
My thoughts on other stuff:
Dinner: BBQ is fine but that isn't $35/plate BBQ and I dont really want $35/plate BBQ when I have grease and what not on my hands/face. Food trucks would be excellent, the concession stand options are limited, greasy, and awfully spendy all things considered.
Pit area restrooms/portajohns: YES for the love of God yes!
Speaker facing pits: YES for the love of God yes!
Open run order: I know it sucks to try to organize and there's a worker shortage but it's the only realistic way. We all want to see trash cans with giant turbos kick the crap out of say a GT4 the way there is a lot of at event tweaking and service there isn't time for that with a structured run order format.
Drag racing: You cant run people down a wet dragstrip without telling them. I don't know if the date change keeps the sun out longer or the temps higher but that was solidly uncool on the part of whoever made the call, a 130hp FWD car with an accomplished drag racer shouldn't be out of shape past the 1000' ever I was three passes in a row. Street tire drag racing generally means drag radials which are a million miles away from an RT660 or other autox focused tire.
My opinion on the schedule might not have fans but I have to suggest it:
Friday night safety NHRA tech, event tech, registration, and drivers meeting at the track.
Saturday: Get the AX underway by 8:30, back the drags up an hour or two run on hot pavement as long as possible.
Make the classes make more sense, this might just be better explanation or pushing something besides tires into the equation (No tube chassis, wing limits, as produced aspiration/long block, factory suspension pick up points, etc for GTN) (engine swaps/turbos and wings in GTW) (tube or heavily modified chassis in GTU)
Focus on the overall winners more, the event is the $2000 challenge the top three overall are the focus and should get the biggest prize packages, followed by special prizes, followed by individual in budget event wins, followed by over budget cars. Over budget should have overall awards only, get them to participate in both dynamic events if they want to play.
More space for challengers in the magazine, there were several cars there this weekend that answered the persistent question "how do I get on track for the least money", several absolutely fascinating engineering accomplishments, and, more great stories than I can count. A feature on a challenge car/team could and in my opinion should be written in each issue (I feel the same way about UTCC competitors)
This is the best event in motorsport, on average the best weekend I have all year, and just a very very special group of people coming together to make something way better than it should be on paper. A little tweaking and this could be something bigger and better than ever.
In reply to Byrneon27 :
One thing mentioned here, all events.
The ala carte option for which dynamic event feels off to me. You don't want to run one of them, thats cool. You need to pay for both though.
Gainesville runs test and tune nights at the track past sunset frequently. There are a ton of cars there on street tires, and local drag racers on slicks lifting the front tires and putting down fast times.. What sort of prep do those events get compared to what we get?
I've actually done a few of the test n tune nights in slowish cars ranging from 13-17 seconds. Most were on street tires, but one was with the 13 second challenge RX7 on balloon like road race tires. None felt the slightest bit sketchy.
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