In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As your friend, I agree to disagree. If someone feels the need to cheat and spend $5000 plus travel and hotel to win a grand or two in prizes I think their priorities are off base.
On the record I went to buy some $120 vortec heads and explained the challenge to the guy, he said "ok you can have them for $100 and I can write you a receipt for $50" and I said thanks for the discount, please write me a receipt for $100
Some of you guys really know how to take the fun out of a cool event.
Patrick said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As your friend, I agree to disagree. If someone feels the need to cheat and spend $5000 plus travel and hotel to win a grand or two in prizes I think their priorities are off base.
On the record I went to buy some $120 vortec heads and explained the challenge to the guy, he said "ok you can have them for $100 and I can write you a receipt for $50" and I said thanks for the discount, please write me a receipt for $100
I am amazed at how many sellers offer to do that. I'm like no that's not what it's about. It's a honor thing. I would cut my dick off before having a seller write a receipt for less than I paid.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:what you're saying is "a challenger by themself is less honest than a challenger with another person." And I disagree.
I don't think anyone is saying this. It's not about honesty or cheating. It is about an event which centers around a regulated budget.
Self-trades are, currently, basically unlimited as long as the FMV's are equal on both sides. Easy, like you said. Anyone can engineer a wildly lopsided trade with themselves(interior leftovers for a transaxle or a carburetor seem like fine examples). As long as the values are in line, just keep piling up junk you don't want/need/can't sell until the FMV matches the part you need... 'Unlimited $0 budget hit trades' doesn't jive with a regulated budget.
Direct trades with another human take more effort, and are inherently limited by two people agreeing the deal is satisfactory for both parties.
It's not about abuse of a rule, it's not about what-ifs, and it's not about you. It's about maintaining limits within a regulated budget.
In reply to gumby :
The rules already define it.
As AC has posted, the rules are very specific about how to define FMV. They are the same for self trades as for trades with others. Dems the rules.
This past year I offered up an FMV scenario in accordance with the rules. It was a self trade scenario. Forum users disagreed with my FMV proposal, and I backed down. They were right. I had more value than I realized. So the car didn't get built (inside the budget)
The rules are clear. This debate makes no sense.
SV reX said:The rules are clear. This debate makes no sense.
We should probably spend more time figuring out how to get more people to the event (and how to make sure they have a good time) and less time debating FMV self trades.
gumby said:Direct trades with another human are inherently limited by two people agreeing the deal is satisfactory for both parties.
Self-trades are, currently, basically unlimited as long as the FMV's are equal on both sides.
I'm glad you agree with the creators of the event.
Then you said:
Anyone can engineer a wildly lopsided trade with themselves (interior leftovers for a transaxle seems like fine example), just because the values are in line.
It can not be both "wildly lopsided" and "the values are in line". That contradicts the very notion of trades in general and FMV trades as defined in the rules of this event.
It's about maintaining limits within a regulated budget.
I'm glad to hear you agree with me that either "all trades count against budget at FMV" or that "all trades with equal FMVs count as zero budget impact."
In reply to Tom Suddard :
Wasn't trying kick over a hornets nest, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on some unknown (to me) ways for improving the challenge car without hitting the budget as hard. It looks like the proposed rule is now posted as a change in the rules for $2024... Self trades will go against recoup (at FMV I assume). Sounds like a good plan to me!
I'm with AC on this.
Trades should be equal. Either all trades are unlimited (as they have always been), or all trades are recouped. I don't think there should be any distinction between trades with others or self trades.
UNLESS we go back to not allowing self trades at all. (Which also makes some sense)
Allowing a self trade but requiring it be documented differently than any other trade makes things overly complicated, and doesn't make sense.
I don't think it's being a duck to use any rule. All I'm saying is the FMV trade rule could be abused as the once unlimited recoup rule that is now not allowed. It's like any rule nobody cares till it's actually abused.
Is there a build thread for the Taurus police interceptor? Impressive results, tempted to buy one.
Andy Neuman said:Is there a build thread for the Taurus police interceptor? Impressive results, tempted to buy one.
X2. That thing looked good, sounded good and ran like a scalded dog!! Plus bonus points for being a family affair! 
Patrick said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As your friend, I agree to disagree. If someone feels the need to cheat and spend $5000 plus travel and hotel to win a grand or two in prizes I think their priorities are off base.
so supporting self trades is equivalent to "cheat and spend $5000..."?
CrustyRedXpress said:We should probably spend more time figuring out how to get more people to the event (and how to make sure they have a good time) and less time debating FMV self trades.
As an observer for the first time in real life (I read a lot of the notebooks on display) it does appear to get to be a very detailed accounting process, especially if one decides to return for a 2nd year. e.g. maybe sand off this year's paint with its associated cost, deduct that cost, add it to a new part next year.
Geez, no wonder the cost of your accountant is not part of the equation...
YMMV
Stampie said:Patrick said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As your friend, I agree to disagree. If someone feels the need to cheat and spend $5000 plus travel and hotel to win a grand or two in prizes I think their priorities are off base.
On the record I went to buy some $120 vortec heads and explained the challenge to the guy, he said "ok you can have them for $100 and I can write you a receipt for $50" and I said thanks for the discount, please write me a receipt for $100
I am amazed at how many sellers offer to do that. I'm like no that's not what it's about. It's a honor thing. I would cut my dick off before having a seller write a receipt for less than I paid.
Especially when there are those of us that give freely to the cause. No me gusta.
I have a lot of old racecar parts that are no longer part of my program that are free to challengers. At least 3 competitors have taken advantage.
CrustyRedXpress said:SV reX said:The rules are clear. This debate makes no sense.
We should probably spend more time figuring out how to get more people to the event (and how to make sure they have a good time) and less time debating FMV self trades.
I want to come back to this idea. How can we make it easier for people to build cool cars and have them show up? Last year we had the LMP360, FDat, and the winning Bradley GT build. Three really cool, amazing builds. I want to see more. More than anything I want AC's Monzora, Deadskunk's Corolla, Darth Nader, and numerous other "in progress" builds to come. How can we do this?
This is the only event I go to every year because this is the ONLY group that I feel connected to. I love builds of all types and intensities. If you have an idea, I want you to build it. I understand there needs to be a rule structure, but I want there to be a way for builders to use the parts you either already have, or can trade for, to build the craziness that is in your brain.
There were 32 in-budget cars at the Challenge this year. I'd love to see that double next year. How do we make that happen? What I don't want to do is get stuck on one issue that locks up the potential builds in limbo. Building this E36 M3 is hard enough.
I will never build a car that will win Challenger's Choice, but in my mind, that should be the top prize, award-wise. Winning times are great but what impressed your fellow builders to decide that your craziness was the coolest. Hell, maybe even vote and have awards for the top 3?
Finally, how can we get attendees to volunteer to help with the event? I'm thinking:
Assist with registration
Assist with tech
Assist with figuring out an online streaming solution
Assist with dynamically pairing close drag cars to run against each other
Assist with concours wrangling
Assist with things to do during concours judging (valve cover racing, etc.)
Offer to host tech seminars, etc.
Some of this may already be in place behind the scenes that I just don't know, but we really need to think of this as our event and what do we want to see it become.
In reply to hobiercr :
Can we get an amen!
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Regarding my stated goal of my car being a cruiser, how does that have anything to do with its challenge configuration? Why do *you* get to say that *my* cruiser should have an interior? If my challenge parts car wasn't a Corvair (hint: it wasn't), how much of that interior would you say I should use in my Corvair? How big would you say my gas tank should be? It's currently 8.5 gallons, does that meet your definition of how much gas my (eventual, maybe) cruiser should carry?
etc ad nauseum
:sigh:
I knew that wasn't going to scan. I didn't say your car wouldn't have an interior, you did. You put the parameters on the trade, and your example was a bad one.
The transmission has value to you, the interior has no value to me. You're proposing a trade of $300 for $0, the definition of something shady going on. A better trade would be the transmission to you for a crown vic frame and running gear. It could still be seen as lopsided to some, but as long as both parties are happy and no one did anything shady to actually get the trade its a solid swap.
I traded that transmission because I had no use for it. It was taking up space and I wanted it gone. Same reasons it was given to me. The guy that took it saw the value, he had some old parts that were worth less than the trans to him so he swapped them to me. I know what I was asking for for the transmission and how many people were interested in it at that price point, but the only real world value of it to me was in potential.
Despite the interest it didn't sell at my price, but I got a trade. Why do I have to put down my potential sell price (or anyone's) for that?
Also, as ultimate proof that recording FMV of all outside trades is a bad idea, here.
That thread and the goal of it is, to me, the epitome of this forum in regards to being under $2000 for the Challenge. Recording FMV of all the trades in it would destroy the budget and that ain't right.
Mr_Asa said:Also, as ultimate proof that recording FMV of all outside trades is a bad idea, here.
That thread and the goal of it is, to me, the epitome of this forum in regards to being under $2000 for the Challenge. Recording FMV of all the trades in it would destroy the budget and that ain't right.
2000challenge.com/rules/ states:
You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling or trading unrelated parts into your budget.
Self trades... Sometimes people want to keep parts that they take off the car: Post Challenge use, or another car.
When I did the Challenge Boxster many of the parts that I took off of the car were useful on my other Boxsters - Headlights (Porsche Litronic), seats and interior parts, convertible top, etc. It easily can add up to over recoup. I established FMV based on SOLD prices that I could find because asking prices can often be total BS. If I had been required to actually sell them or trade to someone else for budget purposes, I probably wouldn't have bothered with doing that car for the Challenge.
All trades and purchases can be abused by an abuser. So what. Keep it fun.
Want fairness? I think that competitors who live less than 1,000 miles from Gainesville should be forced to drive or trailer their cars for at least 12 hours prior to arrival and take two days off from work on both ends of the Challenge.
recoup = $1k max
trades (external and self) = $1k max
simple enough?
In reply to Mr_Asa :
It makes no difference if the interior has value to you. What matters is that the value was established in accordance with the existing rules.
I get it. You don't want an interior. I have no use for a Crown Vic frame and running gear. It has zero value to me, but it has value. And I'd rather an interior (so it has value to me, but you don't care).
The rules explain how to establish FMV. They say to ask on the board and get 5 people to agree (plus other methods). If no one agrees, FMV is not established. If everyone agrees except Mr Asa (or SVreX), then FMV is established.
If you really believe interior parts have no value, try buying a few.
When I built my Challenge car in 2004, there was no self trading allowed. I did, however, sell lots of interior bits and recoup the amount. It was a Subaru SVX, and people wanted all that stuff. I made more on the interior bits then I had paid for the car.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Mr_Asa said:Also, as ultimate proof that recording FMV of all outside trades is a bad idea, here.
That thread and the goal of it is, to me, the epitome of this forum in regards to being under $2000 for the Challenge. Recording FMV of all the trades in it would destroy the budget and that ain't right.
2000challenge.com/rules/ states:
You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling or trading unrelated parts into your budget.
So did you mean something different when you said "all trades" or was there some nuance I'm missing? Cause what you seem to be pointing out is that we can kick the can down the road one generation of trades and still do whatever the berk we want in regards to shady E36 M3.
If trades unrelated to the car don't count, that's where the shady E36 M3 happens and then the last trade is "above board"
There's always a way to game the system, always. We shouldn't focus on that, we should focus on making the event better.
Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
Agree that we need more budget $2000 cars. I feel like the over-budget classes may have taken away from the core $2000 budget efforts. I'm guilty as charged, as someone who normally fields a Challenge car but instead brought my daily driver. Here's the $2000 budget fields over recent years looking through the results:
2018: 39
2019: 54
2020: 32
2021: 38
2022: 30 (budget cars only)
In reply to maschinenbau :
IIRC, I think there were 74 in 2004
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