Stampie said:Another question. I paid $500 for my car and already maxed out it's recoup at $500. So now I can't trade any parts that came with it since trades will count towards recoup?
This is a great example of why trades should not be restricted.
cruisermatt said:no one is protesting cars at the event so why is there always discussion about major rule changes?
Hear, hear! We've spent 7 too many pages discussing such a non-issue.
Ranger50 said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Stampie :
These questions are smoke and mirrors. There is a well defined and established set of rules governing how to assign value to trades.
So if the seats are fmv at $50 and I get $500 in trade, no cash involved, it's a $50 trade result against the budget? Or if you have no idea on the seats and trades straight up, it's $0?
that is a great example of how trades with others already have an advantage over self-trades. The way I read the current rules, FMV does not apply to trades with others, only to self-trades:
2000challenge.com/rules/ states :
You may sell or trade parts to yourself for fair market value.
Direct trades do not count towards your recoup limit, but must be recorded on your budget sheet.
maschinenbau said:cruisermatt said:no one is protesting cars at the event so why is there always discussion about major rule changes?
Hear, hear! We've spent 7 too many pages discussing such a non-issue.
You are free to skip over this thread.
EDIT: that sounded snippy, and I didn't mean it to be. What I meant was, just because this discussion doesn't have value to you, doesn't mean it doesn't have value.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:maschinenbau said:cruisermatt said:no one is protesting cars at the event so why is there always discussion about major rule changes?
Hear, hear! We've spent 7 too many pages discussing such a non-issue.
You are free to skip over this thread.
Sure, but a counterpoint:
nocones said:Tube frame, Kit Cars, and Kart Conversions are only eligible to run GTU. They are free to run on 200TW tires of any width, but they will be classed in GTU.
I kinda like this.
maschinenbau said:nocones said:Tube frame, Kit Cars, and Kart Conversions are only eligible to run GTU. They are free to run on 200TW tires of any width, but they will be classed in GTU.
I kinda like this.
Reminds me of an idle thought I had while deciphering the classes. Is there anything, other than time, preventing people from running in multiple tire classes?
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Ranger50 said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Stampie :
These questions are smoke and mirrors. There is a well defined and established set of rules governing how to assign value to trades.
So if the seats are fmv at $50 and I get $500 in trade, no cash involved, it's a $50 trade result against the budget? Or if you have no idea on the seats and trades straight up, it's $0?
that is a great example of how trades with others already have an advantage over self-trades. The way I read the current rules, FMV does not apply to trades with others, only to self-trades:
2000challenge.com/rules/ states :
You may sell or trade parts to yourself for fair market value.
Direct trades do not count towards your recoup limit, but must be recorded on your budget sheet.
That was a two person trade played two different ways. Never did I say I was trading to myself. I look at this as a paper clip to a Porsche trading scheme.
Now, if I could get into some afr185's and an alphabet cam in exchange for cast iron gt40's, I'm all ears.
In reply to Ranger50 :
Read my response again. I never said you were making it a self trade. It was obvious from the way you phrased it that it was a trade with someone else, proposed two ways. And it is a great example of how trades with others have a budget advantage over self trades..
In reply to cruisermatt :
I think the only reason unlimited FMV trades gets brought up because of the one Miata from 15 years ago that ended up making the limited recoup a rule. Why only allow limited recoup but not limit self trades?
In reply to Andy Neuman :
Because trading is labor intensive and is more like "labor" than "dollars".
Unlimited trading has always been a part of the event. It makes it interesting.
Andy Neuman said:In reply to cruisermatt :
I think the only reason unlimited FMV trades gets brought up because of the one Miata from 15 years ago that ended up making the limited recoup a rule. Why only allow limited recoup but not limit self trades?
And why limit self trades when two-party trades are not similarly limited?
In reply to Andy Neuman :
Trading was supposed to make it interesting and creative.
Recoup was introduced to limit unlimited sell-off which resulted in cars with nearly unlimited budgets.
SV reX said:In reply to Andy Neuman :
Trading was supposed to make it interesting and creative.
Recoup was introduced to limit unlimited sell-off which resulted in cars with nearly unlimited budgets.
Limiting purchase price of challenge car and limiting recoup are there to prevent "I bought a salvage title Whizbang Boostmobile for $10k and sold the carbon seats for $5k and the bi-Xenon headlights for $3k and now i have a $2000 Challenge car."
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:SV reX said:In reply to Andy Neuman :
Trading was supposed to make it interesting and creative.
Recoup was introduced to limit unlimited sell-off which resulted in cars with nearly unlimited budgets.
Limiting purchase price of challenge car and limiting recoup are there to prevent "I bought a salvage title Whizbang Boostmobile for $10k and sold the carbon seats for $5k and the bi-Xenon headlights for $3k and now i have a $2000 Challenge car."
I like unlimited trading between two parties, that makes a very interesting story.
Unlimited self trading, allows me to pick whatever part I want past the recoup and trade it to myself. My example of using a chevy express donor for an engine was excellent. My $1000 van easily has $7000 worth of FMV parts to recoup or trade to myself and it is easily documentable.
Unlimited FMV trades to yourself is like having unlimited recoup.
edit: if you want to hire me to consult what FMV parts you are leaving on the table to trade yourself I can do it. I'm bored this time of year.
Andy Neuman said:I like unlimited trading between two parties, that makes a very interesting story.
Unlimited self trading, allows me to pick whatever part I want past the recoup and trade it to myself. My example of using a chevy express donor for an engine was excellent. My $1000 van easily has $7000 worth of FMV parts to recoup or trade to myself and it is easily documentable.
I'd say that's a good choice for a challenge parts donor. Well bought!
Unlimited FMV trades to yourself is like having unlimited recoup.
Well, not unlimited because eventually you run out of parts from your donor.
Andy Neuman said:Unlimited FMV trades to yourself is like having unlimited recoup.
This is why I support some sort of limit on self-trades, and lumping $1k of value for self and external trades keeps the ruleset that much cleaner. Has anyone, and if so, do we know how many/often people actually submitted $1k worth of trades based on the starting value of the items that were traded? I think the $1k limit also addresses Stampie's concern about already maxing his recoup on his $500 purchase, he'd still have $500 left for trades Yes, it does also mean a slight change to allow those trades beyond the initial purchase/traded value of an item.
Mr_Asa, earlier in the thread you were discussing purposely devaluing your parts for FMV before you modify them. Sorry, but to me, that's cheating. Whatever you gave in exchange to acquire them the first time should be the value ($$ or trade based). If you already had them, and need a real FMV, do a real FMV effort before you alter them.
In reply to ralleah :
Oh good. So you agree that my parts have a $0 value.
Got the initial trade item for free. Traded it for heads and ignition components. Heads and ignition parts are now free. Great.
Mr_Asa said:In reply to ralleah :
Oh good. So you agree that my parts have a $0 value.
Got the initial trade item for free. Traded it for heads and ignition components. Heads and ignition parts are now free. Great.
Two questions to consider in answering that: is the original trade item a related part, and does it comply with challenge rules governing free stuff.
2000challenge.com/rules/ states :
You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling or trading unrelated parts into your budget.
2000challenge.com/rules/ states:
Free parts must be known to and available to the public (eg. sitting in a ditch on the side of the road). Free parts must be supported by documentation (bill of sale saying free, screenshot of a Craigslist curb alert, photo of a dumpster overflowing with nitrous kits, etc.)
“Free” parts given to you by a friend must be added to the budget at fair market value.
Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value.
Mr_Asa said:
Reminds me of an idle thought I had while deciphering the classes. Is there anything, other than time, preventing people from running in multiple tire classes?
Only thing I can think of is being able to work the course?
Also spending many dollars in rego and having to make two separate budgets for the alternate wheels.
Mr_Asa said:In reply to ralleah :
Oh good. So you agree that my parts have a $0 value.
Got the initial trade item for free. Traded it for heads and ignition components. Heads and ignition parts are now free. Great.
Works for me! (And the free seats Chris found on the side of the road that I've been driving around Betsy sitting in. Good trade fodder 
)
bumpsteer said:Mr_Asa said:Reminds me of an idle thought I had while deciphering the classes. Is there anything, other than time, preventing people from running in multiple tire classes?Only thing I can think of is being able to work the course?
Also spending many dollars in rego and having to make two separate budgets for the alternate wheels.
The registration might be something that GRM could work with you on, if they so desired. Not like you'd be bringing another car or team members, right? Still, might not, we have been talking about ways to increase the profit from this event for GRM.
Making a separate budget shouldn't be an issue, its a copy and print thing with one line item changing.
Unless I am massively mistaken, course workers are going to get a revamp this next year. Among other issues that are being looked at, under current rules as I understand them for course workers, Ga Tech is only obligated to send one person up for course work.
As a reminder, this is Ga Tech.
I dunno. These aren't insurmountable problems. It would be interesting to see.
I think every team member should be asked to volunteer, with every team having a 1 person exemption.
(Yes, I'm saying 1 person teams would not have to volunteer.)
Just re-read all the FMV self trade stuff.
It seems like almost everybody but AC wants self-trades to be limited and arms-length trades to remain as they are. NoCones suggested both types limited as well, but he doesn't seem as tied to the idea.
I agree that the problems aren't insurmountable, just throwing reasons out there for why someone might not register in multiple classes.
As far as having team members all work course, I think generally WR has been good natured enough in the past to work more than its share and cover other drivers when they need to work on the car.
For the sake of discussion, in an "all hands" fix the car scenario between run groups who would be there to cover the WR team? I wouldn't want to put them in a situation where they have to choose what members (who also aren't getting the privilege of driving) have to sit out of helping work on or fix the car so that they can subsidize the course work with half the team.
I would be more ok with obliging an equal number of workers to the number of driver bands or some similar scheme. I understand no solution is going to be perfect, but think it's good to consider things from the flip side of the coin.
Honestly I think part of the coursework issue this year was that once the schedule was off-time and you couldn't hear them announcing run groups from the paddock, you had no clue when you were supposed to actually report for coursework. I had to text people who were on grid to figure out what was being announced every time.
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