1966 Volvo Amazon Wagon - just getting started

tallpaul wrote: That would stink. I haven't put my hands on a vq, but my internet research has said that both engines are around 22 inches wide at the corners of the heads. I assumed that since the vq is taller, that the widest part would be up higher than the a-arm mounts.

tuna55 wrote:

tallpaul wrote: I think I'm leaning towards the Nissan v6, its a pretty good compromise of power,size and aftermarket. I think i'm going to skip the v8 due to weight. The i5 and i6 Volvo engines are still in the running, but I'm still trying to find more info on their size (length) and weight.

A Nissan VG or VQ is going to be VERY wide. Much wider than a 302 or 350. Measure carefully.

Measure a donor in a JY carefully, as well as the engine bay. I looked briefly and found measurements for both that both agree and disagree. It depends a lot of what you're measuring to. I am not the expert on these, so just measure everything on a sample before you buy anything.

Small japanese inline 6? RB20?

Since my v-engine hopes seem to be dashed, I'm open to considering i-engines. I've read about the short i6 developed when by ford for Volvo. I like the idea because it gets me 6 cylinders, more displacement and should be about the same size as a 5. Anyone know anything about them, like length, weight and availability of parts? There's also the vw vr6, but I've never really liked the sound of those, but it might be my best option for a 6. Mating a rwd tranny to either of those engines will probably be a challenge though.

VW RWD conversions have been done. Google it a bit. Somewhat popular with the TDI crowd for putting those engines in trucks and whatnot. A VR6 is a possible idea, although it's still surprisingly wide when the intake and exhaust manifolds are factored in. Unfortunately, any BMW engine is a no-go for the same reasons as V engines, their slanted orientation puts the exhaust in a PITA spot. The Volvo B30 from the 164 is 'almost' a bolt-in, but you will have to tweak the front end to account for the extra two cylinders.

As I've posted before - you're on a road heavily traveled by many over the the last 50 years. These cars really suck for engine swaps.

They don't suck so much if you give up on the idea of keeping a back seat and having a "date night" car. (unless you are courting a gear head)

Mine won't even have the original dash, my only concession to street/creature comforts will be a defroster/heater. I may even put the radiator in the back to help weight balance. Front spark plug is 16" back from front axle center line. Plus with the motor moved back there is room for a proper quick steering rack!

Yup - once you're willing to cut firewall/driveline tunnel, things become much easier for engine positioning.....and tougher for some of the interior work.

Have it in my head to mount the C6 Corvette drivetrain complete with torque tube and transaxle in my 240 at some point. IRS and cut the firewall. While the wheel base of a C6 and a 240 are almost identical (.2" difference), the engine set back (torque tube length) is significant. But that would likely make front/rear just about 50/50...

Yeah, for sure there is no way that you are ever going to get a V8 in one of these.

Especially if you want to get the lid on!

Friend is doing the 302 conversion into a 122 with stock suspension Went with a modified upper a-arm in order to eliminate the front exhaust interference. Might have some pics around if you are interested.

Anything can be done if you're willing to reengineer most of the car.

Don't be dissuaded, just go the the junkayrd with a notebook and a measuring tape. Look around, you'll figure out something fun.

Although you could do a lot worse than:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22999

From the Ecoboost thread.

13B

Tunnels are stupid small in these cars. Great packaging of the original bits, but not much to play with when it comes to swaps. You are going to be hacking the full length out and fabbing new bits.

I've seen Buick V8s jammed into these. I have driven a lot of miles in these cars. They are pretty cool, but would I start a very expensive and time sucking project using this as my starting point? Um, no. Put it this way: even the most amazing Volvo is never going to be worth anything. If you are going to go to this kind of trouble, why not start with a clapped out 911 and see what $25k and three years will do for it. An Alfa? A work out Jag E coupe?

Hate to rain on the parade, and it's not because I don't love Volvos (I currently own two), it's just that if you are really building THE car, why not start with something a little more amazing?

AaronBalto wrote: I've seen Buick V8s jammed into these. I have driven a lot of miles in these cars. They are pretty cool, but would I start a very expensive and time sucking project using this as my starting point? Um, no. Put it this way: even the most amazing Volvo is never going to be worth anything. If you are going to go to this kind of trouble, why not start with a clapped out 911 and see what $25k and three years will do for it. An Alfa? A work out Jag E coupe? Hate to rain on the parade, and it's not because I don't love Volvos (I currently own two), it's just that if you are really building THE car, why not start with something a little more amazing?

If I recall, Marcel Proust was the dude who covered this one when he said “Let us leave pretty women to men with no imagination.”

Yeah, the obvious candidates for obvious modifications make sense if you have no imagination and need the safety of the herd to validate your efforts. The truly wacky individuals seem to roll their own unique way; away from the herd when possible.

No car is really "Worth" E36 M3 in the grand scheme of things.

Just a thought - unlike some classics, the engine in the Amazon and 1800 is actually pretty decent. There is at least one specialty machine shop building them around 200-250 horsepower. You get to keep some originality (which I like sometimes) and that's plenty of power for driving around. Just a thought, as the 'swap' would just be cleaning up some bolts and reusing them.

tuna55 wrote: Just a thought - unlike some classics, the engine in the Amazon and 1800 is actually pretty decent. There is at least one specialty machine shop building them around 200-250 horsepower. You get to keep some originality (which I like sometimes) and that's plenty of power for driving around. Just a thought, as the 'swap' would just be cleaning up some bolts and reusing them.

n/a? I'd seriously like to see what they do to make a 2 valve pushrod 1.8 liter make 112hp per liter..... remember the original 1.8 made 108hp total or 60hp per liter

btw... I don't disagree the B18B and B20B are both very good engines... for pushrod operated 2 valve per cylinder 4 cylinder engine...

200 HP N/A is somewhat doable (has been done); 250 with F.I. I wouldn't say it'll be cheap nor is it something that is DIY-able. Much of it is in the head-work which is fairly guarded knowledge by those who have invested no small amount of time and money into learning what to do - and more importantly, what not to do.

Contact VClassics via this forum (or more accurately, the Classic Motorsports forum). If you want a 200 HP B20, Phil can build one for you. The frustrating part of me is Phil is on the other side of the country (Wash state), while there is another Volvo engine specialist 20 miles from me, but he only does race engines. Street customers are too much of a PITA to deal with. Granted, it surprises me there are enough vintage Volvo racers out there to keep him in business...

I would love to see more of both of your builds. I looks like you cut up the firewall some, was that just to make room for the trans width or were you also making room for the engine to move back to clear the cross member? I'm not yo concerned with making room for the trans, but moving the firewall back worries me, i'm 6'8" and need all the leg room I can get. Based on the amount of room you have with a 90 v8, it seems like a 60 v6 would only be better (for room that is). The extra width of the ohc should be above the wheel wells. I'm currently overseas, but plan to spend some time in the salvage yards with a tape measure when I get back. I'm trying to narrow down my options before then.

NOHOME wrote: Yeah, for sure there is no way that you are ever going to get a V8 in one of these. Especially if you want to get the lid on! Friend is doing the 302 conversion into a 122 with stock suspension Went with a modified upper a-arm in order to eliminate the front exhaust interference. Might have some pics around if you are interested.

In reply to tallpaul:

In addition to cutting the firewall a bit, NOHOME is also replacing the entire front suspension and steering with Miata bits to make room. His build thread is in this same forum.

In reply to Ian F:

Thanks, I found his thread and have read through it. I like the direction he went, but I have reservations about taking away from the legroom. It looks like the main driver for pushing it back was to make room for the radiator. I wonder if getting rid of the mechanical fan would have been an option instead. All the swaps seem to struggle with the oil pan interference with the cross member. Would running a dry sump fix that issue?

tallpaul:

Ian is right when he mentions that this car does not want to be swapped. Forget V8..this car was pretty much designed around one drivetrain.

What I am doing (drivetrain and suspension wise) is designing a whole new car that will have a Volvo P1800 shell along for the ride. The finished result will have more Monster Miata DNA than Volvo when it is done.

The issue with swapping a V anything into a P1800 is the front suspension: The upper a-arms in particular are a problem since they intrude into the engine compartment and leave no room for headers at the front cylinders.

The front crossmember is also massive, forcing the engine upwards and not tolerating front sump engines.

You also do not have a whole lot of headroom in that engine compartment, so while a V6 like the S10 3.4 would work, anything with OHC might be a bad idea if you want it under the hood.

The classic P1800 swap involves shoving the engine WAY back into the firewall. This involves a lot of work on things such as wipers and HVAC systems. Also, the foot-room gets a bit compromised; not for length, but for width.

The Ford AOD gearbox is a worse-case scenario for a swap. A T5 would pretty much leave your footspace unaffected. If the car were for me rather than the wife I would have used a T5 with the S10 short tailshaft and maybe tried to see if I could keep the two part driveshaft.

Keeping a live axle would also make life easier.

As a rule, swaps do not make perfect cars; we just ain't that good at this stuff compared to the teams of engineers that built the things in the first place. The other thing is that we lose patience when the development pha$e starts (car is on road and feels/handles like a turd).

Believe it or not, the Miata envelope is not too far from the P1800 in terms of weight and wheelbase. By using a suspension that was designed by Mazda get brakes and geometry that should be close. By following a V8 conversion recipe that has been developed by the Miata crowd, I take advantage of all their development.

This is all just fun anyways, so go for what tickles your fancy and enjoy the process.

tallpaul wrote: Would running a dry sump fix that issue?

When/If I get the chance... I believe a dry sump will work. My idea was to put a Toyota 4 cyl mill and a 6 speed...(either 3SGE, or 4/7A) and then use IPD for all the suspension goodies. The Volvo diff (Dana I believe) is more than strong enough, and allows for many gear choices

oldeskewltoy wrote:

tallpaul wrote: Would running a dry sump fix that issue?

When/If I get the chance... I believe a dry sump will work. My idea was to put a Toyota 4 cyl mill and a 6 speed...(either 3SGE, or 4/7A) and then use IPD for all the suspension goodies. The Volvo diff (Dana I believe) is more than strong enough, and allows for many gear choices

Stay away from IPD control arm bushings. They left without even saying goodbye during a Lemons race, causing some exciting handling behavior.

A dry sump might work, but it would depend on the engine dimensions. A less complicated solution would be to convert to a rear sump and redo the oil pump pick-up.

To be honest, after much dreaming and sketching, my favorite non-B20 swap is still to graft the entire body onto a Miata pan. Still not 100% sure about it, though, as I haven't had access to a Miata long enough to be able to measure and compare firewall positions, which could complicate that plan considerably. I could see the upper shock mounts being a PITA as well. The hood of a Miata is much wider than an 1800, although a 122 might be better there as the hood is a bit more conventional and less "Italian from the 50's". Sort everything out and then go with a LS swap kit if more power is desired.

I may come across as a "purist" sometimes, but really I'm not... I've just been around 1800's and old Volvo's for long enough to have seen many failed swap attempts and those I've seen that do actually run and move are not very good. As I said earlier, guys have been trying (operative word: trying) to stuff V8's into these cars since they were new 50 years ago. Nothing being discussed here is all that new.

Ian:

The Miata chassis swap would probably be the smart way to go. The Miata would bring all the suspension hard-points and also the pedal cluster controls.

Just as useful would be the tunnel structure (need to stretch a bit) along with engine mounts and maybe even radiator mount structure.

Two reasons I did not go down that route: Firstly, Miata tub in any kind of usable condition are very rare in Canada. It would still need to be swapped to a V8