460 Ford head gasket job.

    Well, this is a bit out of the normal for here, but in working on an old body style 80's F450 - called a superduty at the time - I discovered its getting compression into the radiator. It has a 79 - 85 carb'd 460 in it, and had too much carb. I knew it was way to rich, and I finally got a more appropriate carb, started getting the jetting dialed in and figured out its not just a carb issue.

    So, anyway, it has the newer serpentine belt accessories, only minimum wiring, and an aluminum intake, so not too hard to disassemble. Hardest part it its quite tall! I've got to do this as cheap as I can, so I'm hoping for no machine work. I am going to get a timing chain for it while im in there... if its still factory, Ford put a timing set in retarded 8 degs. I don't know if this engine has had any work done, or if someone just slaped the intake on.

    I've read some reviews on some of the gasket kits, that the year differences can get in the way and ya end up spending a bunch on individual ones. Anyone got any suggestions of where to go for gaskets on this beast? I'm not doing any big power, so I don't need the top dollar stuff, but I don't want junk, either.

During rear brake work, just to show the size of this beast!

I might need to learn how to make pictures smaller, if these annoy anybody.

I'm confused, you said it's a late '80s F-series, but that body style didn't show up until (I think) '92.  Body swap or something?

Past few times I've opened up an engine that isn't getting anything special done to it, I just grab the FelPro Head Kit.  Contains everything you might need.  Make sure the gaskets crush as much as the stock ones do.  I ran into that and a decent power loss on an older motor.  I think Ford used to make gaskets that crushed to 0.025" and the modern ones went to 0.055-0.065"?  Pre-smog engine, though so this might be fine.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Yea, its a bit of a mutt.. the body is actually a 92 F150 XLT 4WD. The frame was made from 87 till 97, and the engine was made from 79 to 85 (last of the carb'd 460's) the Superduty's were all fuel injected, or the diesel. The ZF 5 speed that is in it is prolly the original to the chassis.

I haven't called felpro themselves... I prolly need to do that. The reviews online say the years don't always match up to the online listings. Normally I'd just click the button at summit, jegs or speedway. Flea bay has some excellent prices on generic kits, but I don't know how the quality is.

If you can go into a parts store that has a FelPro kit, they usually list on the box what years it covers.  There will be superfluous parts in the kit depending on the year.

If there is a difference around that time is in 88 when the heads changed intake port  shape and center bolt valve covers. Head gaskets are the same, as the block itself is still a d9 casting, which lasted until 97.

I know some of those heads have poor valve jobs which beat the seat out.

You'll enjoy the 150ft/lb head bolt torque. 

In reply to Ranger50 :

Yea, the fuel injected engines, around 1987 or so, have essentially the same block as 79 up till the end. Piston is different , and the heads are way different. Intake and exhaust sides are both different enough to not be able to bolt up. I don’t remember my heads casting number, but it places them in the 79-85 or so. Not the best, but not the worst. I may grind on the “emissions bump” in the exh. port while there off, or might not fool with it

i had not looked at any torque specs. , but 150 for the head bolts don’t surprise me! If they come off ok, and clean up, can I reuse them?

I really hope my valves look ok...that starts out pricing this budget !!! Scope creep has already happened, but then replaced whole truck. Don’t want to keep throwing cash at a truck that’s gonna be a hard sell as it is!

The heads are heavy as hell, and we broke a torque wrench on one of the head bolts. It never clicked! 
 

The intake is a bit of a pain to seal if I remember correctly. You want to use sealant on the China walls and around the coolant ports. I don't remember having any head trouble, dropping a valve or valve seat. It might be common, but we didn't see it on the 3 we resealed. 
 

Well, I have not had the chance yet to pull things apart, but have done some looking for parts. FelPro sets at the local parts do have to be ordered, so can't look at the box. In fact, the most complete set, that probably has the correct gaskets, has to be special ordered... but is a few dollars cheaper than the less complete set! If it needs any head or block work, I will not be putting it back together, so I'm waiting till then to order parts.

I do have a question on the timing chain, and possibly a good mild cam, I might get (while that far in. Its not scope creep... I swear!) Although I've never "degreed" a cam, the timing set is keyed in position... as long as you select to proper keyway, a degree wheel will only tell you if the cam specs are correct? Would have to change a keyway orientation to change anything? I guess with more exotic valve trains, stuff can be fine tuned, but this is stock old school stuff. Assuming Lunati and Cloyes are to spec's, I would think it'd be fine?

When I work in the engine compartment of my truck for any length of time, I take the front wheels off, lower it until the brakes barely clear the ground, and then put it on some jack stands.  It makes the working height of the engine compartment more accessible.

Entropyman said:

When I work in the engine compartment of my truck for any length of time, I take the front wheels off, lower it until the brakes barely clear the ground, and then put it on some jack stands.  It makes the working height of the engine compartment more accessible.

That's f'n brilliant!

  Why degree a cam?  The cam could be off a tiny bit, so it is considered good practice to degree the cam, measure and adjust so it is lined up perfectly.  Just installing and lining up at what looks like zero could be off a little.

 Can also advance or retard the cam timing a few degrees, this will more the power curve a little, either to higher RPM or lower, kind of a tuning adjustment.

 But yes you can just install the cam, a mild cam might not make much difference, of course there could be many opinions on this.

      I did degree a cam once years ago, step one you have to find true top dead center, since those marks can also be off a little. I forget the rest.....

In reply to TED_fiestaHP :

Yes. That is correct. Exactly what everyone else says. 

My question is, since the cam gear has a pin to align it, and a keyway to locate the crank gear, a degree wheel will  tell you if it needs to be adjusted a few degrees, due to manufacturing tolerance , but HOW do you adjust it those few degrees you mentioned? Short of buying an adjustable timing set? At 3 to 4 times the price?

on a 460, if you buy a 73 to 86 Cloyes double roller single key, it is set to 4 (or 8) deg. retarded. 

To get “straight up” you buy a 87 to 97 with either one key, (0). Or for a few dollars more a 3 key (+8, 0, or -8)

so, if I am looking at this right, a degree wheel  with only tell me if something is out of spec. ?

So, again if unless I'm missing something, my only ability to "adjust" my cam timing is "straight up," "+4 (8) degrees", or "-4 (8) degrees." In my thinking, if the degree wheel shows I need and adjustment other than those, I would have to buy mor expensive parts, since either Cloyes of Lunati did have their tolerances wrong.

I've tried to as this question while "bench racing,'' and I either get a explanation of how to degree a cam (that is not my question) or an insistence that "everyone that knows what there doing always degrees a cam" and they act like I'm being argumentative.

I would imagine that with a mild cam, with the factory low compression pistons, it would make less of a difference than with a 600 HP monster build... but that doesen't answer my question , either.

When I ever open this engine up, I'll find out if the bottom end is stock or not. Stock, from what I've read, is about 7.5:1 static compression, with the pistons down in the hole 0.030" - or more! And not enough quench area. Shavinf the heads (like ya would normally do) or ultra thin head gaskets or early heads does not help... Have to deck the block. And I'm not gonna go that far. I'm assuming I will find that the pistons, either stock or rebuilt, are going to be too far down in the hole, limiting compression, thereby limiting me to the mildest of cams. Stock is around 198/206 @0.050   440/480 lift and I'm only going to 209/214 and 502/522. I wouldn't bother, if I wasn't in that far for the timing set anyway. This will give it a fresh cam and lifters, chain and gaskets.

All this just to sell it! But I want whoever gets it to trust the engine, since I have to fix it to sell at all.

In reply to 03Panther :

Fun to upgrade, I suppose, but are you really going to get your money back on the cam upgrade? Is your potential buyer going to buy/walk based on the presence of a mild cam?

Well, I figure the potential buyer will not contact me at all if the engine is broken! Beyond that I have to pull it down that far to repair. $76 for the complete gasket kit, and throw away non used ones... $89 for a head gasket kit! $41 more for the timing set to replace a potentially stretched and 4 (8) degree retarded one is worth it. Already has the performance intake, carb. and exhaust... since the cam (may already have better than stock?) will giver her a bit more power, I figure the better it runs, the more likely it will sell. Its not in some run of the mill 1/2 ton truck, that can be had for a dime a dozen - so good power is a good thing. No telling the condition of lobes/lifters without pulling it out, and if it does need replacement, stock would cost more. I would not even consider it, if I wasn't going to be that far in anyway!

Of course, I've got to pull it apart to find out where I'm at before I will order anything. Just bench racin' in the meantime! And hoping for an answer to what I've always thought was a fairly simple question.

   When I did degree a cam, it was on a engine that is often used in racing, the cam gear used a dowel pin, offset dowel pins were available.

   Typically when you degree a cam you only adjust by a few degrees.   You have to use a large degree wheel and you have to start by finding true piston top center, using the timing marks won't be close enough, since you are looking for just a few degrees.

      Will it really make a difference on a race engine, you would need to measure it on a dyno.

    A mild cam on a street engine, not sure if it would be worth the extra time.  Although could be a interesting exercise, but I am sure this project is enough work already.

    The reason I did it, I had a limited selection of cams, only a few only a few matched the allowed lift limit of the race rules.  So the cam I bought made power at to high of the RPM range, I wanted to move the power back down the RPM range a little.

The offset dowel pins is that part that actually answers my question! Thanks. I did not know that they existed! I’ve only see them mentioned in jokes...

i also know that you can get fully adjustable timing sets, but they are way expensive. An offset dowel would be cheap. 

Knowing how, and why, when ever I asked why do it without a way to adjust, I only got the description you gave... without the offset dowel! Or talked smack to! But now I get ya. Thanks again.  

Ugh, lots of work just to sell a parts truck...someone will ALWAYS show up to buy a big block Ford 460 the question is for how much? Maybe if you got $750 as is, would be the same as if you got it put back together with gaskets, antifreeze, new thermostat, plus whatever else is broken when you get inside the engine. Only to get $900....just a thought

Not trying to sell a parts truck... hoping to sell a running truck. Will definitely not be selling a running engine without the F450 being included

Hate to have to do head gaskets just to sell, but I’d have to part it out otherwise, and have 5 others I need to do that to! Would make more money as a part out (no rust straight body, Dana 80 axle, ZF transmission, hyd. PTO, etc. ) but the head gaskets will be the easier job, as much hassle as it will be

i never said it’s a parts truck... unless I find a cracked block or head. And then I will not be trying to sell the engine. Unless someone needs a boat anchor.