looking for ideas for my roadster build

As the title says, I'm looking for ideas for my two-seater(maybe even just one) roadster build, something like the areal atom.

I already have a base chassis design,

things I need ideas for: Engine- Im looking for a small displacement, high revving engine, maybe a hyabusa, noble, lotus, or ferrari engine(i know ferrari didnt make many small displacement engines) what im looking for is a F1 type sound, but i dont want to kill myself with F1 type speed

Carbon-ceramic brakes- where can i get some? Need some calipers and etc...dont want to skimmp here...

suspension- what are some good cars i can steal suspension parts and designs from?

transaxle- I need a mid-engine transaxle that will handle the umpf of whatever engine i choose(500+hp capable with limited slip)

as the car wont weigh much... im going to need some downforce, does anyone have designs for a spoiler, air splitter, and the concepts of design so I can adapt it to my chassis?

Should i use tubular tubing or square? aluminum or steel?

You don't mention what the intended use of the car is, but I seriously doubt that you need carbon ceramic brakes. In fact, given the cost and fragility of the only ones I'm familiar with (the ones available on Porsche 996/997s) I would strongly suggest that you don't want them.

First, welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have a cool project idea in your head.

But to echo Boxhead, what are you wanting to build this car to do? I agree that carbon/ceramic brakes are probably not a good idea.

Also, you say that you would like a high-revving, small-displacement engine, but also a transaxle that can handle 500hp.

Unless you are made of cubic-$$$, you may not need to support that type of hp.

But if you do, someone here will be able to point you in the right direction. Just give us a bit more info on your idea.

For powerplant, the only thing I could think of is a turbo or supercharged F20C or F22C. I dont see why you would want to take existing suspension parts off of production cars. With a tube chassis I would probably look into a pushrod bellcrank style suspension design, but thats not exactly off the shelf stuff.

If possible, use round tubing, it is stronger.

BoxheadTim wrote: You don't mention what the intended use of the car is, but I seriously doubt that you need carbon ceramic brakes. In fact, given the cost and fragility of the only ones I'm familiar with (the ones available on Porsche 996/997s) I would strongly suggest that you don't *want* them.

I intend to use it as a track day kind of thing. I just named carbon cermanic brakes because I didn't want to cut corners on stopping. I want it to be fast... Really fast. And be able to handle extremely well.

I guess I basically want to build a small F1 car (I know I can't do all that, but for a point of reference) I know it will be somewhat spendy... But fun as well. So performance, handling and braking are very important.

nhyrum wrote: As the title says, I'm looking for ideas for my two-seater(maybe even just one) roadster build, something like the areal atom. I already have a base chassis design, things I need ideas for: Engine- Im looking for a small displacement, high revving engine, maybe a hyabusa, noble, lotus, or ferrari engine(i know ferrari didnt make many small displacement engines) what im looking for is a F1 type sound, but i dont want to kill myself with F1 type speed Carbon-ceramic brakes- where can i get some? Need some calipers and etc...dont want to skimmp here... suspension- what are some good cars i can steal suspension parts and designs from? transaxle- I need a mid-engine transaxle that will handle the umpf of whatever engine i choose(500+hp capable with limited slip) as the car wont weigh much... im going to need some downforce, does anyone have designs for a spoiler, air splitter, and the concepts of design so I can adapt it to my chassis? Should i use tubular tubing or square? aluminum or steel?

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but based on your questions, you really don't have a clue what you are doing.

Not that that has ever stopped me.

We have no idea what your skill set is, what your tool arsenal is or what your real budget is. The questions you are asking suggest that you are not prepared for the project.

If in fact you have the budget to go forth on the project, you would be best off to buy an Exocet kit and assemble that. There is NO WAY you could ever design and fabricate a better result. If you want to add modifications, from insane engines to bodywork, then go right ahead and do so once the thing is running. By the time you are done, you will also have received a solid education in vehicle building and dynamics.

What he said^ Don't take this the wrong way, but you're talking about race cars the way a teenage boy whose entire firearm knowledge comes from video games, talks about guns.

armt350 wrote: For powerplant, the only thing I could think of is a turbo or supercharged F20C or F22C. I dont see why you would want to take existing suspension parts off of production cars. With a tube chassis I would probably look into a pushrod bellcrank style suspension design, but thats not exactly off the shelf stuff. If possible, use round tubing, it is stronger.

I was looking at the f20c, and it does seem like a defect candidate, and Is going on my list.

I was looking at production cars so I did last could just get parts and bolt them on instead of trying to design a pushrod Bell crank system.

Now, I understand the "criticism". It's just that, as an engineer, I've always wanted to build something like this, and I understand I may have exaggerated things. I guess I'm looking for more like 200 Hp.

Check out www.Locostusa.com and www.midlana.com for some similar projects and ideas.

I agree, you probably don't want carbon brakes, especially on something this light.

For F1 sounds look at sportbike engines, they are powerful, light and sound like sex, but street drivability will suffer. If you will spend any time on the street then a automotive engine is probably the better choice.

Suspension design is a whole project in it's self. If you aren't VERY comfortable with it it's probably best to stick to someone else's design (midlana or Locost) or use the full suspension including subframes from a donor. It's not as simple as building mounts for factory A arms.

Here's my build: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/midlana-first-book-build/74633/page1/

bgkast wrote: Check out www.Locostusa.com and www.midlana.com for some similar projects and ideas. I agree, you probably don't want carbon brakes, especially on something this small. For F1 sounds look at sportbike engines, they are powerful, light and sound like sex, but street drivability will suffer. If you will spend any time on the street then a automotive engine is probably the better choice.

I am leaning more towards a 'busa drive train because of those exact reasons.

I'm not sure if I want it to be road legal yet or not.

Check out the Abarth 1000 build on a system for using a bike engine in a car that may need reverse. That is your best bet for high rpm and light weight. What is your budget? If you are really considering a Ferrari motor and ceramic brakes I am guessing 100k.

singleslammer wrote: Check out the Abarth 1000 build on a system for using a bike engine in a car that may need reverse. That is your best bet for high rpm and light weight. What is your budget? If you are really considering a Ferrari motor and ceramic brakes I am guessing 100k.

I'll check that out, thanks. As for budget, I don't have a limit as it will be a few year long build. I know that Ferrari engines are a dime a dozen, relativity because they get totaled) 19500 for a Ferrari 360 engine with a factory Ferrari rebuild shipping included is relativley cheap.

nhyrum wrote:

singleslammer wrote: Check out the Abarth 1000 build on a system for using a bike engine in a car that may need reverse. That is your best bet for high rpm and light weight. What is your budget? If you are really considering a Ferrari motor and ceramic brakes I am guessing 100k.

I'll check that out, thanks. As for budget, I don't have a limit as it will be a few year long build. I know that Ferrari engines are a dime a dozen, relativity because they get totaled) 19500 for a Ferrari 360 engine with a factory Ferrari rebuild shipping included is relativley cheap.

If you have the ability to smack down 20k for an engine, then by all means dive in..I want to see where this is going. There is nothing in the automotive world that can't be overcome with cubic dollars.

I have no idea what your level of automotive design expertise is, so please do not take my comments as an insult in any way. I am no expert, nor do I claim any such title. However, I was involved with Formula SAE while in college and that experience did give me a small amount of insight on a design project such as this.

Our design process went a bit like this:

1. Develop your goals for the vehicle. Cost, application, performance benchmarks. This was fairly easy for us as the FSAE competition was pretty specific. Your design is much more open ended. What are your goals?

2. Develop a list of components to help you attain those goals. This is engine, trans, brakes, etc. In this phase you design the wheel base, track width and suspension geometry. If you are using off the shelf components such as uprights they can fix some the variables in your suspension. If you are fabricating uprights then it's wide open. Either way I'd read as many books as possible on the subject as it's not for the faint hearted. Our suspension guys used Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken. I might also suggest the "To Win" series by Carroll Smith.

3. Design your frame. One of the FSAE judges explained a vehicle's frame as a big bracket to hold all your stuff in the places you need it. This is what seemed so curious to me in your original post. How can you design a frame without suspension geometry identified and major components selected? Your frame has to have a certain stiffness to work with the suspension geometry you designed in step 2. It has to have a certain amount of occupant protection. Other than that it holds things you have not decided upon yet.

Like I said, I am no expert at these type of design problems. Our team never did that great in the competition, mostly due to a lack of budget. A healthy budget seems to not be an issue your case if you are willing and able to fork over $20K for just an engine. However, you may want do a little more front end planning to come out with an end product that you like.

Best of luck with this project and please keep us updated. It sounds very interesting.

mblommel wrote: I have no idea what your level of automotive design expertise is, so please do not take my comments as an insult in any way. I am no expert, nor do I claim any such title. However, I was involved with Formula SAE while in college and that experience did give me a small amount of insight on a design project such as this. Our design process went a bit like this: 1. Develop your goals for the vehicle. Cost, application, performance benchmarks. This was fairly easy for us as the FSAE competition was pretty specific. Your design is much more open ended. What are your goals? 2. Develop a list of components to help you attain those goals. This is engine, trans, brakes, etc. In this phase you design the wheel base, track width and suspension geometry. If you are using off the shelf components such as uprights they can fix some the variables in your suspension. If you are fabricating uprights then it's wide open. Either way I'd read as many books as possible on the subject as it's not for the faint hearted. Our suspension guys used Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken. I might also suggest the "To Win" series by Carroll Smith. 3. Design your frame. One of the FSAE judges explained a vehicle's frame as a big bracket to hold all your stuff in the places you need it. This is what seemed so curious to me in your original post. How can you design a frame without suspension geometry identified and major components selected? Your frame has to have a certain stiffness to work with the suspension geometry you designed in step 2. It has to have a certain amount of occupant protection. Other than that it holds things you have not decided upon yet. Like I said, I am no expert at these type of design problems. Our team never did that great in the competition, mostly due to a lack of budget. A healthy budget seems to not be an issue your case if you are willing and able to fork over $20K for just an engine. However, you may want do a little more front end planning to come out with an end product that you like. Best of luck with this project and please keep us updated. It sounds very interesting.

Your comment is IMMENSLEY HELPFUL! I had no idea where to start. My frame is very generic. It was a design I found(specifying 1" steel square tubing) I have modified it to be mid engine. I came here looking for ideas, as I am still in the planning stages.

I plan on the car being a segway to formula,possibly being a two seater(father son project) being a father son project, and I don't yet have a son, I have plenty of time to plan and build.

Did that help? I'm sorry for my vagueness

P.S. I absolutely LOVE textbooks! keep em coming!

More good reading on car design basics:

http://www.kimini.com/book_info/

Also read the E36 M3 out of this site: http://dpcars.net/

Welcome to the thread, the Exocet idea mentioned before is a great one. Start with a 4 cylinder and when you are ready to go faster, drop in an LS.

I think you should run TWIN busa motors. Chain drive one to each output flange of a simple IRS open diff. You will not need LSD because you have independent power to each wheel. You probably don't even need the diff at all, just the housing for the outer bearings for physically locating the thing.

You want something to sound like F1? how about "v8" noises at 13k?

There's also always this (busa-based v8):

In terms of transaxle, the porsche boxes from 911's should be a good start (if you aren't going with my above suggestion of twin motors...)

rcutclif wrote: I think you should run TWIN busa motors.

that...is the MOST INGENIOUS THING IVE EVER HERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know from experience that tuning multiple carbs is a pain in the ass compared to a single carb... how about tuning two seperate motors? I see you have a picture of one, but has it been proven on the road and used regularly?

Im leaning more towards the twin busa or an "italian" super/hypercar engine due to reliability at redline and the sheer sound of sex... i dont want a big, burping, beer drinking american v8 like an LS. They are amazing, but i dont want that throat ripping sound in my design. hence why I want a high revving, small displacement, the 2-3 liter range

rcutclif wrote: In terms of transaxle, the porsche boxes from 911's should be a good start (if you aren't going with my above suggestion of twin motors...)

would that fit most engines? do you think i could find adapters so it could fit that H1 busa v8?

I have come up with a budget. I am planning on spending about 5-10k/year for the next 20 years or so, excluding major expenses such as motor and such. It will be a long project but probably after the first two years or so it should be driveable.

nhyrum wrote: I have come up with a budget. I am planning on spending about 5-10k/year for the next 20 years or so, excluding major expenses such as motor and such. It will be a long project but probably after the first two years or so it should be driveable.

You sure roll different than most of the people on this board. I will look forward to your first step. Out of curiosity, where on the planet are you located?

FWIW, the twin 'busa V8 and gearbox are around $45K, don't know if that includes the ECU.

You plan on building it over 20 years but want it drivable in 2? That means it has to be done in two year, so spread the budget over 24 months and not 20 years, making it a lot more expensive.

My recommendation is to spend At Least a year reading suspension design books - you're getting way ahead of yourself. It's like you're concerned about door knobs in the house that you haven't drawn the plans for yet... First things first.

nhyrum wrote: Im leaning more towards the twin busa or an "italian" super/hypercar engine due to reliability at redline and the sheer sound of sex... i dont want a big, burping, beer drinking american v8 like an LS. They are amazing, but i dont want that throat ripping sound in my design. hence why I want a high revving, small displacement, the 2-3 liter range

So you're willing to pay a 400% price premium for the sound?! You can get a brand-new LSx or Ford Coyote crate engine that beats the 360 engine in power and torque for, what, $4k-$6k? And I wouldn't assume the Ferrari is more reliable, because in general they are NOT. They are also not a "dime a dozen," more like a Benjamin a dozen if we want to use metaphors.

Sorry for the tone but the approach to this project has me highly skeptical. You could build an Exocet that would make you pee yourself for the amount you have budgeted for the Ferrari 360 engine.

Build a small displacement high revving lsx with 180 degree headers and independent throttle bodies. It will make incredible noises.
Seriously though, read read read on the locost forums. Really cool stuff there and on the Kimini/Midlana and the DPcars sites.