In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I see U joints that are out of phase and an awful lot of angularity. It may have a variable ratio effect that is disconcerting.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I see U joints that are out of phase and an awful lot of angularity. It may have a variable ratio effect that is disconcerting.
TurnerX19 said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I see U joints that are out of phase and an awful lot of angularity. It may have a variable ratio effect that is disconcerting.
I heard some clicking while watching the turning demonstration video. Could that be caused by the out of phase U-joint?
Turner and Indy, good observations, and i appreciate the feedback.
i matched the phasing of the original upper joint to within a degree or two. the original joints on the C4 shaft were *not* exactly 90 degrees apart. having said that, i'm not a steering engineer and don't know exactly how i-shaft length may play into phasing. i will look into it. worst-case, i have to get another Corvair column and Sweet u-joint. this is one of the risks when not designing from the ground up. i'm limited by the position of the C4 rack at one end and the Corvair column at the other. I considered shortening the column jacket and making a longer i-shaft but decided against it.
i'm pretty sure clicking noise was PS hose dragging across LH inner tie rod boot. it went away after i moved some things around.
as built by GM:
My first post in this thread?? Been following along the entire time..... anyhow, this seems like a relevant juncture to get more edjumacated on u-joint phasing.
I understand the changing rotational velocity of the joints as they articulate, so I know why phasing is important. I imagine the Corvette shaft pictured must have some special case of angular and parallel misalignment in the OE application, since the joints are neither in-phase nor 90° out.
I am sure I built the steering shaft in my truck phased the same as a driveshaft, based on Woodward's literature(pg. 7)
http://www.woodwardsteering.com/PDF/7.%20Steering%20Universal%20Joints,%20Splined%20Couplers%20and%20Shafts.pdf
Why do I repeatedly see mentions on GRM that joints in a steering shaft should be 90° out of phase? Learn me what I am missing.
U-joint phasing and angle matters whether it's on a steering column or a driveshaft, bind is bind. The only time you'll get away with it is if the angles are very minimal which they are not in your case. I'm not sure why GM would make that intermediate shaft like that. Makes zero sense to me.
I think I would try to find a double-cardan /CV style double joint that you can put on the end of your steering column and aim the rest of the shaft more inline with the rack input. This may or may not be possible.
What you probably don't want to hear, but would probably be the best thing you can do, would be to change the angle of the whole steering column so it points more directly at the rack.
cruisermatt said:U-joint phasing and angle matters whether it's on a steering column or a driveshaft, bind is bind. The only time you'll get away with it is if the angles are very minimal which they are not in your case. I'm not sure why GM would make that intermediate shaft like that. Makes zero sense to me.
I think I would try to find a double-cardan /CV style double joint that you can put on the end of your steering column and aim the rest of the shaft more inline with the rack input. This may or may not be possible.
What you probably don't want to hear, but would probably be the best thing you can do, would be to change the angle of the whole steering column so it points more directly at the rack.
It's not bind. It's angular velocity differences.
I bet you don't notice AT ALL. You would need to be one he'll of a driver to notice that mismatch. Also, it isn't spinning nearly the same rate as a driveshaft.
Most steering wheels are mounted off center which can cause the same issue yet nobody complains about that.
In other words, #sendit. If it is a problem, redo it. I bet it won't be. Especially with a rag joint at the end.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
My vote as well!
In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :
i don't know, but maybe someone here will.
In reply to cruisermatt (Forum Supporter) :
will evaluate after first drive and consider options.
in reply to all:
I have researched this topic a good bit recently. If you check ididit, borgeson, flaming river, etc, you will see about a 50/50 split between 0 deg out and 90 deg out. And if you cruise junkyards you'll see that the OEM's put the phasing in all sorts of configuration that are neither 0 nor 90. They have to, because it's very rare for the packaging of a steering shaft to mimic that of a driveshaft. Consider all the cars out there with rear-mount steering racks. How could you possibly package one with parallel input and output yokes? Answer: by saying berkeley the driver.
at my last job I sat next to the steering engineer for 2 years and heard many discussions of angles in XY XZ and YZ planes, and running models with different phase angles to find the lowest output velocity variation across the lock to lock range with a fixed input velocity. I looked up the formulas and I don't have the ability to measure all the input variables so I'm sending it as-is. I have observed with video from several angles that there's no binding in my upper joint, so I'm ok with it, at least for now.
Interesting topic, for sure, but definitely not one with a one-size-fits-all design.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Note that I said the effect may be disconcerting. I would try it first for sure.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:I have researched this topic a good bit recently. If you check ididit, borgeson, flaming river, etc, you will see about a 50/50 split between 0 deg out and 90 deg out.
That's interesting. I followed Woodward's documentation because that's where I sourced my joints. I didn't even bother researching any further.
Ship it. I definitely wouldn't let it bog you down at this point unless a problem presents itself!
Didn't get much done tonight, was super hot in the garage.
Took pix of stuff for CL, posted 3 listings, got first scam text within 10 minutes. It's funny because I post my phone number as seven34-six34- etc, so I suspect it wasn't just a robot.
Jeez dude I just wanted to buy your C4 Corvette Saw blades.
In reply to nocones :
I totally LOL'd. Send me that code.
In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :
Quote from the "Phasing and Clocking" section of the doc you linked:
Shafts with both angular and parallel misalignment may require special u-joint phasing which can only be found by trial and error.
I disagree with "can only be found by" because I've seen the equations. I just can't accurately measure the input parameters that those equations require.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Not a chance, who would try to scam a dude who throws the horns in a CL ad? 
Subaru Clocks their steering intermediate shaft 90 degrees on GC8's. FYI. I'd take a picture of my intermediate shaft for proof but it's quite short and I am ashamed.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Wife loves messing with CL and FB scammers. Pretty sure she hasn't told any of them to berkeley a goat though. Maybe she just didn't think of it.
Fabricator:
Trial and error could make it perfect, but this general rule of thumb will get the car on course.
Engineer:
I know scant few engineers who can put the science aside when "good enough" is actually good enough. Kudos \m/
TurnerX19 said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Note that I said the effect may be disconcerting. I would try it first for sure.
Yep, noted in your initial reply. My reply was for general info and education of the group, and not intended as a throw-down on you. I apologize if it came off that way.
definitely drive it first, it's going to take the same amount of time to change it where you drive it first or not, and it might end up being completely fine! It just doesn't look right to me.
Really as long as the wheels turn when you turn the steering wheel you're at least on the right track
If it makes you feel any better, the steering shaft in Datsaniti has at least as much angle, far worse fabrication quality, and it handles pretty darn well. Took 4th in Challenge autocross last year.
The steering feel was definitely "sinusoidal" at first. Almost "notchy" steering. Joint angles are at 0deg. Some of the binding may have been the slip joint not slipping though.
Eventually I was able to slot the base of the steering column to straighten everything out, and it was a noticeable improvement. It still looks like an extreme angle, but honestly it's barely noticeable. And I have almost 2000 miles on this sketchy, fabri-cobbled setup.
the 18-gal tank was gone by the time I got in touch with seller, but he took $40 for a 14-gal:
It's 26" long x 13" wide x 10" deep. Making it fit and adding a flange to accept the C4 filler / pump / float / vent assembly will be my first aluminum welding project. I think I'll stop by Alro tomorrow and buy some practice pieces.
I think the 14 gal is better for ya anyway? Love the plan.
I here bad things about trying to learn to weld al. , on anything you care about. I know I wouldn't be able to. I would fab a oversize flange for the pump assy. , and then bolt that to the hole ya cut into the tank. Done well (and I know you can) I think it would look better anyway.
I built a steering shaft setup with Borgeson components for a power rack swap into a 67 Mustang that had similar angles to yours. I was concerned about the angles and phasing but it felt fine. I installed a new bearing in the stock column at the time and told the customer to pay attention to any difference in "feel" over a period of time.
Just picked up a tank of Argon & spool of aluminum wire at my local welding supply store to learn MIG welding aluminum. My "new to me" welder is set up for aluminum and came with a new unused spool gun so I bought a little bottle for gas for $90.00 which can be traded in for $90.00 credit toward a bigger bottle which is $190.00. The welder is far better than I will ever be as an operator.
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