Shop (NOT garage) Build advice......

My cylinder head business warrants space of its own. I've can no longer share my garage with my head shop.

With that as an established fact... I'm shopping enclosed space right now. As I also have to put a roof on the house, so one idea is to incentive the shop build with the house roof.

Adding 14' to my 24 x 14 garage would cost about $8000-$9000 (poured floor, stick built to match current garage, firewall, and re-roof 38')

The other option is a tuffshed. A similar sized space in a tough shed will cost about $5900-$6400 (optioned as I'd like)

I have enough $$ put aside for the roof, and the tuffshed, the garage extension on the other hand may/will require some financing.

Is the tuffshed adequate? OR do I need to extend the garage?

Extend the garage. You want proper electricity, probably air, and water for a sink to clean up. Additionally the addition will add value to what you have.

mazdeuce wrote: Extend the garage. You want proper electricity, probably air, and water for a sink to clean up. Additionally the addition will add value to what you have.

+1

JOsworth wrote:

mazdeuce wrote: Extend the garage. You want proper electricity, probably air, and water for a sink to clean up. Additionally the addition will add value to what you have.

+1

+1

Curious about the whole tuffshed thing. I looked them up and the price seems pretty good for what you get.

A 24 x 30 garage installed, roofed and painted for 16k plus slab.

mazdeuce wrote: Extend the garage. You want proper electricity, probably air, and water for a sink to clean up. Additionally the addition will add value to what you have.

But you won't gain the value you put in the garage. IE: a $10k garage doesn't add $10k to your house value

So, just to be clear, the 14' addition would yield you a 14'x14' working space? (i.e. leaving existing garage "back" wall in place and making a new room?

I'm assuming you're running out of room in a 24x14 because you actually want to use your garage as a garage?

I'm inclined to lean towards the attached addition both from a security standpoint, and ease of doing "properly" (i.e. plumbing for heat/ electrical / etc.). But there's some other variables I'd be curious about since I know nothing of your property. Are you rural or residential? Is what you're doing as a business legit and approved per code/zoning? (i.e. keeping it "hidden" in a garage may be more appealing than effectively having a functioning business out of a 2nd building on the property). Otherwise it's a slippery slope of "2 foot-itis" in project scope creep in building and outfitting a dedicated 2nd building.

There's a guy in Lansing, MI who does basically what I think you're doing, running out of the back of an extended garage, and the first time I went there I was blown away by what it housed. You'd never know unless you knew looking at the small home in a city residential neighborhood.

I am in roughly the same spot you are in. I am contemplating a "deck style" bump out on the garage to keep costs lower. Basically do the floor like a deck, but insulate under, cantilevered off of the main garage. Install sealed foam board insulation under 2x layers of plywood to form a finished floor. Frame walls and cover to match the hose. Stick build the roof with a ridge beam for max height mostly to improve the lighting. Finish inside with drywall or metal. Finish floor with VCT or tile. No concrete probably drops the cost 25-30% and if you don't need it you won't miss it. I'm planning to use the space to do wiring harnesses, build engines, etc. so don't need a lift, cars in there, etc.

Interested in what you come up with. Contemplated the shed idea but like this one better. Not sure I'll pull the trigger on it or just wait to build the "real" shop.. whenever that may be.

Check with your local utilities on the availability and pricing for 3-phase 240v power. If you grow too much you're either going to need to have it, or have to worry about phase converters. You'd be surprised how often you need it when you start worrying about bigger electric motors. Air compressors, ventilation fans, milling machines and lathes, it won't take long till you hit the point you're going to be driving 3-phase motors. So have a plan for that.

Also, I'd recommend against having all your utilities inside the walls, keep 'em on the surface of the walls and ceilings via conduit. This way it's much easier to modify and aid electrical as the shop changes. Stuff it all behind the drywall and you're going to be much less flexible. You'll be shocked how often you're going to be re-arranging things as the business adapts to market changes. You may even want to have a separate electrical panel, with meter, just for the shop. 200 amp minimum available power to the shop to start with, and LOTS of available empty breaker locations. It's not much more money to opt for a bigger box on the initial install, it's spendy as hell to add another or swap it for a bigger one later.

Oh, and ventilation, be prepared for a lot of ventilation. Particularly if you're going to be welding, using a lot of solvents, or need to paint inside. This of course makes heating and cooling tougher due to the greater air volume turnover.

I'll have to disagree with Paul and not only suggest concrete,e, but make it thick and reinforce it if you plan on bringing in heavier machine tools. Anything else and you're going to have vibration issues or just won't be able to support the weight. A knee mill or a big lathe are heavy and have high ground pressure.

-Hans

Have you considered leasing a legit commercial space? Are you at that point in growth?

On the expense side, yes, a commercial lease will cost you more long term. But it also has a few advantages, like reduced electric costs, 3 phase, loading dock, storage, and most importantly increased revenue (from customers who want to work with a "legit" company).

From what I've seen, a decent commercial (or industrial) space can often easily offset the expenses in increased revenue.

(I have never run a cylinder head shop, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express across the street from one once).

One other thing...

Businesses running in residential areas are always running the risk of getting shut down by zoning authorities.

I agree with Hans if you plan on big stuff, but iirc you are just rebuilding/porting heads. If you plan on a surface machine, valve grinder, cncs... well you probably have plenty of money for more proper space

Luckily around here you can get a "non impact" business permit. Pretty much it applies to any business that you can't tell from the street. I run my personal business that way.

In reply to Paul_VR6:

Hmm... I've never heard of that.

Would "Non-impact" include noise?

I would assume so but we are fairly rural around here. The generators that the amish use in their dairy barns are louder than anything I can think of.

You can check, but it's usually very difficult and/or expensive to get a three phase power service at a residential address. Most electric utilities won't even offer it, and even if they do you need to be right by their three phase primary or else you have to pay to get it extended to your house. That can cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Also, getting a second service and meter just for the shop is usually a no-go, most electric utilities will only allow a single service per address.

Sometimes extending a garage is a much easier permit, too.

Extending my garage wasn't going to work - the septic tank and field is there.

My location is specifically zoned for home-based businesses that are NOT auto repair, welding, autobody, or spray coatings. Everything I would want to do. I don't think I'm allowed to raise pigs or chickens either, but that's fairly low on my list of wants.

When I built my shop out back, I toyed with the idea of a separate service, but unless I wanted to separate billings for the home-based business I wouldn't run, I would still be paying the monthly fees for service for the extra meter.

Upgrading the service to the house from 100A to 200A was $$$, but well worth the additional cost, especially for resale if and when electric cars or a hot tub come into play (neither of those make the right sounds).

3-phase is NOT available in my area, and I can't justify the cost to bring it in, so my mill and lathe run VFD's.

Also, where I am, a home-based business may make no more than 40dB noise as measured at the property line. I'm pretty sure I can fart at least that, so I'm not going to win any friends in the noise area. Among other areas.

40dB is "library quiet" which seems insane. In our house our mbr is a floor up but shares the main exterior wall with the garage. SWMBO has never complained about noise from grinding, air compressor etc, even if she's trying to sleep. Only if I start the car with open headers. Accidentally. It would be interesting to actually do some measurements.

A LOT of answers, and intriguing questions....... thank you.....

Some updates.... I'm checking now, but it doesn't appear that I can lengthen my garage, 24' seems to be the allowable maximum. It would be possible to widen the garage to 24' (currently 14'), but that cost would be prohibitive - $14,000+, as it would require rebuilding the current structure to accommodate the added width.

As to another building, ANYTHING "permanent" will require a full permit, and will cause a reval on the property (tough on the taxes right now).

Permanent - any footing, or poured floor

I had the Tuffshed rep out here, and my current garage is nearly identical to a "Tuffshed Premier Tall Ranch". I could place it behind my garage and it would nearly disappear.

Addressing plumbing, my house is 30' from the back of the garage... no plumbing needed.

Addressing electrical, I don't plan on using 3 phase, at least not here. I currently "only" have 110V in the garage, but I am planning on running 220, to be better able to handle the load.

Addressing heating: The garage was never heated and it did cause some issues in very cold weather. A smaller enclosed space, should be heat-able with 2 or 3 5000w ceramic based space heaters (about 10" cube each). they can be mounted on the walls for convenience.

Speaking about code: As long as the new building is considered temporary, and is 200 square feet or less, there is no code to speak of. It is perfectly legal to electrify the shed, as long as the box is in the garage(permanent structure).

The Tuffshed @ 14'x14' with a proper door, 2 - 2'x3' windows, and a gable vent, fully painted, installed would be $6000.

One other interesting point... since the tuffshed is not on a foundation... it can be moved.... They mount jacks to the corner posts and then put it on big wheeled dollies. So if the biz does improve, and I want a more permanent structure, I can move it to another area, and build behind the garage.

As to running a biz from my home.... I do not know any specifics(I'll look into it more), but I've been doing it in the garage with the main door open(60% of the time) for the better part of 6 years now... admittedly, that doesn't make it legal... but I've never had a complaint.

Good to hear. Codes can vary a lot so what applies to many of us may not apply to you (100' limit for me w/o a permit).

I'd imagine a business rebuilding cylinder heads wouldn't gather a lot of attention. Especially if you typically get the heads loose. Not really any different than someone running a sewing business out of a spare room. Now if there is a stream of variable cars showing up in your garage to have the heads removed for rebuilding, that might get some attention.

Interesting that TuffShed doesn't require any sort of foundation. I tried to get a quote, but they don't service my area.

as to what I do HERE...... I only do the headwork here... no removal, or any car work (other then my own, and a friend or two - but no $$ exchanges hands). All degreasing/cleaning, and all machine work takes place @ one of 3 local machine shops.

stuart in mn wrote: You can check, but it's usually very difficult and/or expensive to get a three phase power service at a residential address. Most electric utilities won't even offer it, and even if they do you need to be right by their three phase primary or else you have to pay to get it extended to your house. That can cost tens of thousands of dollars. Also, getting a second service and meter just for the shop is usually a no-go, most electric utilities will only allow a single service per address.

Kinda this. Our machine shop ran off of a converter for decades because it was such a PITA to get three-phase service, and this was at a business location. (A converter can be as simple as an OLD 3 phase motor, if you plug in two-phase it will generate the third phase for you, how well will depend on how much iron is in the motor, thus the need for a really big old one) The impetus for change was an update to a bunch of CNC equipment.

Fortunately our new building site is already wired for lots and lots of three-phase. Once you have it, you like using it. (Three-phase air compressors kick ass!)

stuart in mn wrote: Also, getting a second service and meter just for the shop is usually a no-go, most electric utilities will only allow a single service per address.

It's always interesting to hear how different locations do things. I have two services at my house. 200 amps to the house, 200 amps in the shop. Our family property has 6 separate services on it ranging from a 100 amp well service to 400 amps in my parents house. This is with two different utility companies in two different counties.

As far as building, you might also look into to Graceland Buildings. They have some really nice looking stuff that is reasonably priced. They mostly serve the Southeast so that may not help.

http://www.gracelandportablebuildings.com/

In reply to Toyman01:

Yes, it generally varies depending on the property size, use and local utility rules. There is no accurate rule-of-thumb.

Sometimes it's a matter of who you know. For example, my tiny 600 sqr ft house on a postage stamp lot has a 200 Amp electric service. Way, way over-sized for the property and far above what the area electric company would normally bring to a house of this size (working with electrical utility companies is what I do for a living, so I deal with this all the time). Why? Well, the previous owner had plans to convert the existing oil heat to full electric (why he wanted to do this is beyond me...). He was a long-time retired township worker. He "knew" people. He knew the right people who would overlook the normal rules. While good in some ways (sub-feeding a shop will be easy), it's also annoying as I have this huge 200A feed running from the peak of the roof, down the eave and then across the back and down to the meters. It'll make replacing the siding later this year a real PITA.

Some years ago I was working on a project for a radio transmitter tower that was fed with a 220V single phase service. Despite appearances, these things really don't draw a lot of power. At least not by commercial power usage standards. The client had a strange power issue and somehow became convinced going to 3-phase power would solve it. We looked into the problem and told them they would still have the same problem, but they wanted us to investigate the upgrade anyway. Well, while there was 3 phase power at the main road, the size of the property meant the new lateral would be over a 1/4 mile away, thus requiring new poles, wires, etc. The utility company wanted something like $50K to bring the service to the building. Needless to say, that killed the idea and the client looked at other ways to fix the problem.

In reply to Toyman01:

Yup, that's why I said usually. I'm an EE; I've worked with dozens of different electric utilities and haven't come across one yet that allows multiple services to a single residential address, but there are always exceptions.

oldeskewltoy wrote: Permanent - any footing, or poured floor

But could you "park" the temporary structure toughshed on a "poured parking pad" ?