so i accidently bought a car and started a challenge team last night. have questions.

I dunno. With the orange wheels and no flares it suddenly looks Dakar badass.

Dusterbd13-michael said:

In reply to Stampie :

I'm not sure it'll burn. He'll I'm not even sure it'll kill weeds.

oh it'll burn .....just stand back .....way back.....weeds what weeds?

It has a very cool "early nascar" look with the cut fenders. But also, I like it with the stock fenders and bullits. But I also loved it wide and flared and mean and full aero. I don't think there are wrong answers here. 

$80 for the set of four??  That seems like an excellent price.  Maybe just leave the arches alone until later in the project when things are coming together and you see what makes the most sense.  Better to have the whole car working well instead of just looking good. 

Well, crap.

The draw bar mounts that fit so perfectly together on the bench dont actually work bolted together and hooked up to the truck. Angles cause all sorts of interference. 

Time for some staring and thinking.  Bound to be easier than im making it out to be 

maschinenbau said:

It has a very cool "early nascar" look with the cut fenders. But also, I like it with the stock fenders and bullits. But I also loved it wide and flared and mean and full aero. I don't think there are wrong answers here. 

This right here is mu dilemma in a nutshell. 

Think im going with pres589 suggestion and kicking that decision down the road a ways.

IJS

In reply to Cooter :

That's how it should have been from the beginning.

Cooter said:

IJS

That is definitely a possibility 

In reply to Cooter :

I'd make the argument for a "barge board" thing behind the front wheel (at ~2 o'clock / 60deg), connected to a side-skirt/runner thing that meets up with the rear fender thing.

Trying to find a cleaner version of the Bobby Allison #12 Modified photo I posted, I came up with a couple more tasty small body AMC hatch  inspirations-




I mean, the wheelwells are cut anyway, and dig that bumper tuck!








A cleaner look for the wheelwells.

I love the '70s vibe on the blend and paint of these fairly simple flairs, not to mention... LOUVERS!!



 

They aren't exactly Spirits, but they are all basically Hornets, like all small body AMCs.   

Embrace your huge wheel openings.   I don't have the heart to cut the  Ugly American , but if it were already cut or had rotted wheelwheels, I would be all over one of these choices.

Also, not sure if this photo is in this thread yet or not, but here's a decent view of a blended spoiler that looks like it would be a nice place to attach a splitter-

In reply to Cooter :

The only problem i have (at least in regards to this. My wife will give you a long list of other problems i have) is inexpensive, readily available tires in large by huge. Those are all on 27-29 inch tall tires that are 10-12 inches wide. Thoe only things i am aware of that are grippy and inexpensive are the circle track scrubs like we ran before,  which were NOT suited to the purpose of the car. Getting something similarly sized and shaped in a 200tw or modern track day tire for under $200 a tire is proving impossible so far, but im open to suggestions i may have missed. The entire design criteria this time is cheap consumables, easy to soutce parts, easy to service and repair car, and low maintenance. I want the lowest possible cost of price per lap possible. And i want to be able to hand keys to friends for runs without worrying about cost of upkeep and repair when they run it hard.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the looks of the modifieds. I want that look, if im honest with myself.  I just can't reconcile the look with a cheap and decent tire despite a month of looking 

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

As an incredibly cheap MoParfile myself, I totally get that.   And I'm sorry I'm am not much help in the tire department, the width is doable, but that height requirement is going to be tough for cheap.

Dusterbd13-michael said:

In reply to Cooter :

Getting [...] a 200tw or modern track day tire for under $200 a tire is proving impossible so far, but im open to suggestions i may have missed. The entire design criteria this time is cheap consumables, easy to source parts, easy to service and repair car, and low maintenance. I want the lowest possible cost of price per lap possible. And i want to be able to hand keys to friends for runs without worrying about cost of upkeep and repair when they run it hard.

If you want to stick to sub-$200 per tire, you're probably going to be at 255/xxR17 or 18, max.  it'll probably be ~25" in diameter.

there's a thought tickling around my head, which I'm having trouble nailing down... about V8's, rear tire wear... and power meaning speed, meaning higher brake consumables.

Find yourself some 18" rims and buy this lot....Marketplace - 315/30/18 A6 Hoosier Racing Tire | Facebook

So, where would one go to learn about the circle track guys that do road courses outside nascar? Like off label Hoosier tire application? I keep going back to f45s for $45 a tire.....

And i did this:

a free set of 15x10 cragar v5 wheels i couldn't turn down

so, I had to go remind myself some things... and went and did a bunch of reading today... and found that F45's in 10/27.0-15 are actually under your $200/tire rule, as-is.  (but, I'll agree that $45/tire is better)

on 10/23/17, you said:

The f40s have no end of grip. However, they have no feel, no feedback, not enough weight to get heat in them, and no responsiveness. They would be fine for hpde, but were a failure at autocross. 

There's some more discussion about more caster on 11/11/17, per McCrispin's advice.

on 4/29/19, Robbie had the following comment:

Steering is good if a little slow in ratio. Suspension is noisy but seems to work - we didn't find the car to be overly prone to understeer or oversteer - the driver could easily select which he prefers ;)

switching to the RX-8  steering, sounds like it's going to hopefully address this comment... and it might help with the feedback?  Time will tell.  Further on [6/19/19, specifically], in the same page Ian reiterates the steering comment among these bullet items:

1)  Car pushes.  We theoretically need to add more front grip, but not take away rear grip at the expense of balance.  Because as I said above, I don't think I ever got the car the understeer out on course.  Possible actions include upping front spring rate, stiffer front sway bar, additional front sway bar, increased camber, wider front tires.

2)  Steering rate.  The car is so berkeleying fast, we can't steer the damn thing fast enough!  I know the fastest Jeep steering rate box is already in the car, but damn, we need even faster!  You are all elbows at speed and the thing grips so well, it does exactly as you tell it.  So if you fail to give it the right input, it won't go that direction.

3)  Tire size is perfect.  The new smaller diameter tires make it top out in 2nd perfectly on this big course.  Couldn't ask for better.

4)  Tire compound.  Perfect.  Don't think A7's would make us any faster to be honest.  A7's weigh more anyways...  Lateral grip is not our problem now (which is a weird thing to say as a racer).

They eventually ended up with some 26" tall Avons... if I'm reading things right... and indicate that that engine, and that trans and that rear end... they were the right height for AutoX at Challenge.  (you, Steve, or I... could/should probably run some numbers on the driveline setup you're working towards, and then verify "the best diameter to use")

Potentially you need to 'fork' development.  Build the car for challenge, with the assumption of running some kind of 26" tall tire... and bodywork to suit, using the existing metalwork.  You might price out off-brand riv-nuts that you could put in, instead of rivets, so it's easier to pull flares off and change between a "small tire autocross setup" and a "f45 hpde setup"... and maybe move the lower rear shock mounts (top and bottom) so you've got more ground/curbing clearance.

doing this would probably mean a different autocross and track aero setup... but, I'm not sure that's a big deal.  We could keep the same mounting points... and the extra height of the "track rubber" would mean "we"/"you" could run a front splitter with more of the 'converging-diverging' downforce making elements that tends to be... discouraged with the SCCA's rules.

just a thought.  iirc, ymmv, caveat lector, it's your time/money, etc. "standard sleepyhead reservations"

Tim, you nailed my thoughts that i was having yesterday (minus aero. Thats not even being thought about at this point) while munchkin was in confirmation. Hoosier scrubs for hpde (assuming they clear the bix rx8 brakes) at $45 a tire. 200tw autocross rubber or similar for challenge on the 17x8 wheels. 

And i had remembered the steering speed being an issue. I had blamed it in my memory on the Hoosier sidewall strength, but it seems that robbie and ian had trouble on the avons. I think that the rx8 rack is quicker, but if its still not quick enough i can add a steering quickener. 

I think i need to bodge this thing together and go test....

would it be wrong to grind the brake calipers a bit to clear 15s?

considering the 15's are meant for the track... I'd keep an ear/eye out for some kind of circle track caliper that has more than 1 piston;  or wait and spend some dosh for 4 piston wilwoods?

Dusterbd13-michael said:

would it be wrong to grind the brake calipers a bit to clear 15s?

Depends how much you like brake performance.   Removing material reduces stiffness, which increases fluid consumption (ie pedal travel) and potentially increases taper wear.  I can't say exactly how much. Would spacing the wheel outboard a little take care of the interference?

We are about 1/4 or so from seating on the face of the rotor, so id expect it would angry! 

However, i like sleepyheads idea of vette calipers. Or something. 

Problem for later. But i know we're close to it working!

Seems odd that the 15's won't clear the brakes on the rear. Isn't this an Explorer 8.8 rear? They're a popular swap for the Jeep communiy and most of those guys run 15's. 

In reply to untchabl :

This is the rx8 front brakes. From the 18 inch wheel version of the car (largest brake package) that i was hoping to clear 15s on. 

But, the 8.8 rear discs clear the 15s perfectly