I'll be honest, you're living out the Mercedes outcome that I was dreading and somehow sidestepped. I know EXACTLY how you're feeling as you price out options. It sucks.
I'll be honest, you're living out the Mercedes outcome that I was dreading and somehow sidestepped. I know EXACTLY how you're feeling as you price out options. It sucks.
Eh, any time you have metal smacking against other metal loud enough for you to hear it through multiple layers of other metal (and plastic/foam/etc) you are going to be creating some debris. I dont really feel like this is news unless we're talking chunks. Even if it is, it all comes from somewhere and leaves evidence at the scene of the crime and unless you're talking about scoring on crank journals and cylinder walls it's probably fine to fix the problem, clean everything and put it back together. I feel like what you are learning is not what is wrong with the engine, just that this vehicle triggers business peoples' CYA reflex. It just sucks that this problem keeps tacking on time. It's like your Mercedes went to prison for some minor crime and then while it was in there it kept ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time and now its sentence is 81 years. I mean, it's probably more like 81 hours of hard labor, but still, when will this problem stop growing in terms of time spent and required? Sorry for the tough luck.
In reply to wae :
Bummer, but I’d go with option 4. Good luck with it.
Thanks guys! I know there's a lot of work involved, but I have confirmed via WIS that the engine does come out the top so I don't have to (can't use this to justify) install(ing) a lift. That's both good and bad news, right? The worst-case scenario would be that the block itself is damaged. I don't know what my options are for that -- if it were a "regular" engine, there'd be a whole slew of options to bore the cylinders over or even the crank journals, but as far as I can see, there aren't any overbore sizes for pistons, rings, or crank for this motor. There aren't very many GL350s out there and they have a TON of year-to-year and even intra-year changes to them, making a quick swap pretty tough. Sprinters are slightly different, but I have not yet been able to determine exactly how -- I've done a ton of playing around in the EPC to look at part numbers and interchange, but the block itself is basically a giant asterisk instead of a part number. There was some talk about the OM642 variant in the Sprinter having a different oiling path which led to its longevity over this one, but I can't see that in EPC and don't know if that would be something that I could adapt to fit.
Before I go off buying anything, though, job one is to get it opened up. Maybe I luck out and the block itself is usable. Before I do that, though, I have to find a place to land the thing. My workshop landlord never got back to me about the new space we're looking to take from him so I don't know if the space is available, if he can configure it the way we need it, or when construction is going to be complete. Now that I know it won't fit on the trailer (grr), I don't want to pay another hundred bucks to tow it somewhere just to spend another hundo to have it towed again. It also doesn't really fit that well in the existing shop -- while it fits, it basically makes the rest of the shop unusable -- but with the extra 120 sqft in the new place and the fact that we'd be re-organizing (actually, that implies that we ever actually organized things in the first place...) it could be made to work. Yeah, actually, the more I think on this, I'm less worried about doing the work and more concerned with the logistics of where to do it.
The upside is that my folks are good with me hanging on to the Chevy pickup for as long as I need to. Before I do anything else with the GL350, though, I do need to take the time to pull the upper intake plenum off and get it sealed up right. I must have munged the seal when I put it on or something because it's sucking in extra air and maxing out the trims trying to keep it from going lean. Other than that, I actually like driving the old beast. Hell... it drives better than a Mercedes!
The title change and the move to this sub-forum makes me happy. I'm willing to lend any support I can to this endeavor. Go get 'em.
Do I know where the new shop is going to be? Either way, let me know when you want some help on this adventure.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
Not gonna lie: You're my inspiration in this whole endeavor.
In reply to eastsideTim :
If you're familiar with where the Burger King is off of the Buttermilk Pike exit on 71/75, it's basically right behind there. In fact, even if you're not familiar with where that is, it's still going to be basically right behind there! </DADJOKE> It'll be nice to be so close to food, liquor stores, Home Depot, liquor stores, Crescent Springs Hardware, an AutoZone, and liquor stores. You can bet that I'll be taking advantage of that offer, but the good news is that when we move, we should have our 240V outlet, some insulation, and a heater.
I would start with option 4. Get the head off and see if all the valves are there.
If you find broken valve and the piston/bore is fine, have your head guy fix that.
If you find valve chunks embedded in the piston, now that's a harder job since you have to pull the engine. Then I would look at parting out.
If you find nothing wrong, keep driving til it grenades and then part it out. Invest in AAA first.
Pull it apart and rebuild it yourself.
It's not worth much of anything at the moment, and I'm sure you can rebuild it completely for way less than a new motor. It's just nuts and bolts, once you have it all apart, you will see what was making the noise.
And, if you decide that once it's apart, or once you price out the parts and/or machining, that it's not worth fixing, you haven't reduced the value of the non-running vehicle any worse.
a) You might be able to fix it!
b) If you can't/won't fix it, it was broken already - you can't make it deader.
SkinnyG said:b) If you can't/won't fix it, it was broken already - you can't make it deader.
This. This, a thousand times, this!
I was talking to a friend about exactly that over some whisky the other night. Growing up, my folks didn't have a ton of money so when something broke it wasn't really an option to just throw it out and get a new one or to pay someone to come in and fix it. Dad would get out the tools and figure out how to make it work. For most of my life, I was simply amazed at his ability to pick up something and just understand how it worked, in what way it was failing to work, and how to put it back together in such a way that it would work again. It wasn't until I was in my early or mid thirties that this myth of My Dad the Mechanical Encyclopedia was shattered while we were working on one of the engines in his boat. The exact wording of the conversation is lost in my memory, but it boiled down to him telling me that he had absolutely no idea what was wrong or how to fix it but it already didn't work, so what were we going to do? Break it!? That's what's gotten me through life so far and I don't see it stopping any time soon!
My initial hesitation in all of this has really been the cost more than anything else. Parts are so expensive and so many of them need special tools to R&R that I simply can't afford to load up the parts cannon and start firing away. If this was a Civic with a $35 timing chain and no need for a $300 chain removal tool that I would use exactly one time, I would have already put a new chain on. It wouldn't have helped, but I wouldn't have felt as bad about that as I would have felt after spending $600 on the chain and the tool and not solved the problem. In the end, since the chain's coming off anyway, I'll probably put a new one in anyway since it's a known weak point, but at least that will be a decision not a grasp at a straw.
I've spent a couple hundred on some attempts at diagnosis between the two shops and the towing, and I'm okay with that. I have a habit of tearing things apart way beyond what they needed because I wind up thinking zebras instead of horses. I spent a whole bunch of time trying to figure out how my leakdown tester was broken because I was just sure that a friend's car had a head gasket leak when I should have been noticing the coolant weeping around the water pump. So at least I know now that I am not missing anything simple or typical for this motor. The troubleshooting process is often more about determining what isn't the problem, and I've been able to get professional confirmation on a whole bunch of things being okay at this stage.
Once I figure out the logistics of where to do this work, I'm going to get the right head off and look at it. That is not a very daunting task -- I anticipate that the hardest part will be physically lifting the head out of the engine bay and I've got a crane for that. That will cost me more Loctite, a head gasket, I'll probably spring for the actual cam hold-down toolset, and I would assume some new head bolts. With the head out, I'll be able to inspect the valves and the tops of the pistons on that side. I'll also be able to see some of the cylinder wall, however, I assume that since some of the valves on the left side will be pushed open, I do not want to rotate the engine at that point to really look at the cylinders. If I find damage there, I can assess what needs to happen. Assuming that I don't see damage, or I see something bad enough, the next step will be to pull at least the right side head cover and cams. With the right-side valves closed, I can safely rotate the engine to inspect the cylinders. If I still haven't found anything, the left head will come out and that side will get inspected. If still nothing, heads will go to the machine shop for an inspection. If that still doesn't lead me to a problem, then the transmission will come off and I'll pull the block out, stick it on the stand, pop the oil pan, and flip it around to check the crank. By the time I've reached that step, I am sure that I will have found the root cause and from there it's just a matter of finding the right parts to put it all back together.
I was reading through the "remove engine" process in WIS last night and it really isn't all that different from any other car I've pulled the engine on. Disconnect the coolant and fuel hoses, pull the exhaust, support the front of the motor, unbolt the motor mounts, pull the SEVEN BILLION electrical connections, pull the transmission off, then lift it out. It is a lot of work, but nothing that is particularly hard to understand or do. The only part that I may have some difficulty with is pulling the transmission. My transmission jack turned into a hammer a while ago and I got rid of it, plus I don't know if I can get the car up high enough to get the transmission out from under it. And I'll need to get the transmission out, because I'm going to need to make the front as low as possible so my crane will work to get the engine out. Hmm.. Unless I use that electric hoist my dad's been trying to give me and build a gantry....
Interesting that you have seven billion electrical connectors. The R63 had two and a handful of grounds. The engine was meant to come out with the entire engine harness in place.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
Maybe the book process say to remove the connector at each component, but perhaps there is one big disconnect for the entire engine harness like what you experienced.
In reply to maschinenbau :
More than likely the guy reading the process (me!) saw the step to disconnect the electrical connectors but didn't read the details to see exactly what they meant by that. 
When I did the R63 I bought a STAR manual on CD from ebay for $100. Worth every penny. Not sure what software version they have for yours, but mine was one hell of an instruction manual.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
STAR or WIS/EPC? I've got the WIS/EPC CD which is basically the factory service manual for everything Mercedes ever made along with the parts fiche. I haven't seen a STAR setup for under $300 and most of them are more than that. I do have the MBII diagnostic tool that will show most of the modules but it can't do things like command injectors or re-program things.
Shouldn’t there be an option 5? Especially if it is the ticking time bomb the shop says it is?
5) Drop in a used engine and trade in/ sell?
While rebuilding will potentially allow you to fix the current problem, it may not address the original design issue that led to the failure.
In reply to No Time :
I agree completely, however, a used engine will also not address the design issue. My somewhat uneducated opinion is that the main cause of failure on these is the 10k oil change interval that Mercedes recommends combined with the special oil formulas that need to be run to avoid contaminating the DPF. While I am not educated enough to prove it, my suspicion is that in real-world conditions, these factors combine to cause inadequate lubrication and any engine that I get, short of a fresh reman, is merely going to set the timer on the bomb back some unknown amount.
I've got a line on a place that does reman motors and I'm going to call them after the holiday weekend to see what they can do. Additionally, I've seen some reman Sprinter versions of the motor on ebay for around $6k. If I spent the $6k on the engine, plus another $800 or so on the shipping and various fluids and whatnot to get the engine installed, I could get it sold and probably put a couple thousand in my pocket so I could start over. I'd be okay with that, and it may yet come to that.
If, on the other hand, I can put a couple thousand into it to repair, I'll have a little more flexibility in trade or sale value so I can replace it. Or, heck, once I've been that deep into it I may feel comfortable enough with it to keep it on the road. At least there will be some more options in my pocket. Thanks to my dad and sister, I can afford to be without the car long-term. They've lent me the Emergency Backup Truck so I can haul kids and pull the trailer, plus it's rusty enough already that I don't feel bad driving it in the winter.
Does this engine have variable valve timing? My old Audi A8 does. The crank belt drives the exhaust cams, then a chain from the exhaust cams drives the intakes. Between the two cams is a hydraulic cylinder perpendicular to the chains with plastic shoes shaped like drum brake shoes on the top and bottom. These shoes move to advance the intake cam at higher rpms because air, being fluid, can only move so fast. It gives the air a head start to fill the cylinder at higher rpms. Anyway, these hydraulic timing adjusters fail and the shoes wear and break too. SO you get a racket at startup when the adjuster cylinder is starting to fail like a pogo stick, and a racket all the time when the shoes disintegrate.
The point is, the Germans never really forgave us for the war, and E36 M3ty Rube Goldberg VVT systems are part of their revenge. It does not explain the crumbling braided vacuum hose fetish though. That's just them being naughty. Nissan VQ series engines also like to break plastic guides and make a ticking noise, so maybe it's an Axis powers thing. I played contortionist and did all the timing bits on a Maxima for a friend's daughter while skipping the "Step 1. Drop Engine" part.
The real point is, trust what your head and senses are telling you. I would not rest until I laid eyes on the full run of timing chain(s), guides, tensioners, InstaFail VVT gizmos, etc before tearing it apart further. If a guide shoe breaks or wears away, then your chain is a dull metal cutting saw, and it will make a racket.
Happy wrenching.
In reply to wae :
I think your approach of pulling the engine to open it up is a good starting point for any of the options.
Once you get the engine out and find the source of the problem you be able to decide whether rebuilt, reman, or used will make the most sense.
Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving.
Wae, your statement that you "have a habit of tearing things apart way beyond what they needed because I wind up thinking zebras instead of horses" is, honest to God, the story of my life. And not just when it comes to wrenching on cars!
I paid $600 for my STAR setup complete including the laptop. It’s paid for itself several times over when working on my v12 cars. Not a bad investment if you plan to keep a relatively modern Benz in the fleet.
We recently exited from a GL550 unscathed and we’re thrilled. Having said that, we still miss the MB, like we missed the 230SEL we had in Germany. There’s just “something” about the Benz.
Wishing you all the best with the project. We use an Indy shop here in the DFW that has no less than 3-4 MB factory trained guys, including the owners. If there’s anything I can bounce off of them, I’ll do it.
This thread, which I only just read reminds me of my Jeep Liberty CRD. It developed a tick one day. I took it to three shops and also went over it myself with a stethoscope but no one could pinpoint the source of the noise. I was faced with A- pulling the engine and looking at the bottom end, or B- pull the head. I decided on pulling the head and I must say the person who designed that thing should have been strung up beside Mussolini, (Italian Motori Diesel)
So no joy in the top end, and everything looked good. I did notice a scuff on one cylinder wall so out with the engine. Turned out the noise was a pebble that found its way into the bellhousing and was going around with the torque convertor. The lesson there is that no one had pinpointed the back of the motor as the source of the noise. Well the other lesson is that I did lot of work unnecessarily. But anyway, you may also be looking in the wrong spot completely. But since I was so far into it I bought a used liner and piston assembly and put the whole thing back together. I spent absolutely not a cent more than I was forced to other than the piston kit and a new torque convertor as I thought mine was probably on its last legs anyway. All in all the out of pocket cost was maybe $500.00, mostly for the torque convertor and piston kit. So my suggestion is that unless you are independantly wealthy, pull the motor, find and fix the problem and only the problem, and sell it.
There is definitely something about how the Benz drives and rides that can turn ordinarily rational people into a moth drawn to a flame. The ride is so smooth, it tows so well, it's so comfortable, and I just don't know how I lived before automatic windshield wipers and heated steering wheels! Even with the beating that I am currently receiving from the thing, I'm still not decided on if I want to fix it and dump it or if I'll wind up talking myself into thinking that once I fix the motor it will be different and it'll still love me!
One step at a time is the best and only way to attack this. Knowing that I actually am on a zebra hunt for once helps and I have the advantage of knowing what my worst-case really is: No matter how bad it gets, $20k gets me a new engine professionally installed. Even though I don't have twenty thousand dollars to spend on re-powering a car, there's a weird comfort in at least knowing how far I will fall before I hit the bottom of the hole. The other upside is that I can finally get the O2 sensor and swirl motor replaced while I'm in there anyway!
To the best of my knowledge, it does not have any sort of trickery in the timing system. I'm not wholly familiar with those systems, but the only things that appears to be hydraulically actuated in the timing system are the lifters and the chain tensioner and those just pick up whatever oil happens to be slinging past. I've never had a head with VVT opened up before but the heads on this one don't look any different than any other DOHC head I've gotten in to. That said, I have also often wondered if some of the foibles these cars have isn't a subtle revenge for WWI and WWII. My usual example of that is the lug bolt, designed in a collaborative effort between Rube Goldberg, Satan, and Hitler. I'm willing to concede that the dream team also helped with the design of the world's first diesel engine that can't make it to 150k miles.
Thank you all for the support and the kind words. Knowing that the GRM crowd has my back is a real comfort. These motors don't seem to be very publicly documented and there's not a ton of info I can find on the differences between the various versions other than searching for part number commonality. As I work through this I know I can count on you guys to help me either find the answers or give me an alibi for when the thing mysteriously rolls out of the workshop and catches fire.
As you take it apart, take your time and really look at some of the parts. As complicated and they are, there is some real beauty in the casting and machining on a modern Mercedes engine. Every part has been though of, drawn, rotated in 3D, thought about again, and then cast and machined. Even when the parts are crap, they're remarkable works of modern engineering.
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