Volvo 240 drifter, engine advice!

I hear that B230Fs are really nice.

In reply to Richard Nixon:

Yeah I had in my initial post that a b23 would be an option, maybe an LS1 or a 1JZ. I accidentally deleted my post :/

302 SBF is supposed to fit pretty easy - check out Michael Yount's ride? 351 would make it a little nose heavier which I'm guessing might be desirable in a drift buggy? Not sure on that. Not my forte. :)

v8

keep stock engine, do it on dirt

irish44j wrote: 302 swap, do it on dirt

Da berkeley else do you think I'm gonna say? The owner of converse engineering is very open to doing a lot of work for you in regards to a swap kit.

LSx swap is always the answer in this case. Tons of room under the hood for it, and it'll weigh slightly less to marginally more than the redblock depending the flavor of LS you build.

I'd go LSx swap as well - the Ford lump in mine will come out to make for LS. But, it won't weigh less than the redblock. All aluminum LS and move the battery to the trunk and the front/rear won't be far off stock. But even aluminum LS and the bigger tranny that goes behind it will weigh more than stock 240 drivetrain.

I think you underestimate the hunk of iron that is the B21/23/230. A B230F sits at around 350lbs with accessories and no fluids and that's without turbo hardware. The B23s will weigh in slightly heavier because of their forged cranks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but LS1s sit around 400lbs in the same state.

I consider the trans. moot because you'll be running the same trans. behind either if you're making any power.

I put it to you that an aluminum LS is going to weigh near the same amount as a turbo redblock.

Sans accessories the SBF w/aluminum heads OR the aluminum LSx weighs in the 440-450 lbs. range. Add about 75 lbs. if you go 351 or cast iron block LS. Think about it - cast iron block to cast iron block - with the V8 you've got more block, more crank, 4 more rods/pistons and more cam. And you've got 2 heads. The V8 is notably heavier. No way around it.

And you're not going to find too many T56's or 4L60E's or 12 bolt or 8.8" rearends behind the hotted up turbo-4's in the 240's. Most guys keep replacing the grenaded Volvo trannies, or upgrade to a T5 (about 55 lbs. lighter than a T56). And they throw the G80 9 series locker in the stock Dana 30 housing -- and replace them when they blow them up. Which means even more weight in tranny, and often, rearend.

All of that to say - I think you're wrong. Mine's been V8 powered since 1996. Sans 40 lbs. of A/C and 50 lbs. of bumpers, w/T5 and 8.8" rear, my non-turbo DL weighs about 75 lbs. more than it did before the swap. I'll leave the math to you.

I'd think you need the torques, lots of easily modulated torques, you get a NA V8.

MichaelYount wrote: Sans accessories the SBF w/aluminum heads OR the aluminum LSx weighs in the 440-450 lbs. range. Add about 75 lbs. if you go 351 or cast iron block LS. Think about it - cast iron block to cast iron block - with the V8 you've got more block, more crank, 4 more rods/pistons and more cam. And you've got 2 heads. The V8 is notably heavier. No way around it.

Nowhere did I compare the redblock to cast iron block V8 of any kind. I'm aware that the 351 is heavier, so is your typical SBC.

And you're not going to find too many T56's or 4L60E's or 12 bolt or 8.8" rearends behind the hotted up turbo-4's in the 240's. Most guys keep replacing the grenaded Volvo trannies, or upgrade to a T5 (about 55 lbs. lighter than a T56). And they throw the G80 9 series locker in the stock Dana 30 housing -- and replace them when they blow them up. Which means even more weight in tranny, and often, rearend.

Given that the weak point in the stock rear axle is the axles themselves, changing to the G80/ZF OEM LSD/whatever differential you want isn't going to help. All of the rear axle failures I've seen have been twisted/broken axles. Sellholm in Sweden makes stronger axles, but for the cheap crowd stateside, the exploder 8.8 is the go-to replacement.

Anyone making more power than the T5 can hold, which isn't incredibly hard once you go to a 16V head, has to move to a T56/Toyota/insert heavier trans. here. Granted, there's not many stateside in that group, but when power is equal, trans. is a moot point.

All of that to say - I think you're wrong. Mine's been V8 powered since 1996. Sans 40 lbs. of A/C and 50 lbs. of bumpers, w/T5 and 8.8" rear, my non-turbo DL weighs about 75 lbs. more than it did before the swap. I'll leave the math to you.

If we take these figures, that gives us a difference of 165lbs. Without knowing the stock engine/trans configuration, that's rather arbitrary. Still, it's only 165lbs with a 40lb heavier rear end, and heavier transmission, which again, I say is moot because it would be required with a redblock making sufficient power. Call the difference 125lbs for the V8 in this case.

Side note... are you not running bumpers? Even commando bumpers are only 25lbs a piece.

We can argue weight all day, but it won't mean much without a figure the car before and after. If your setup only weighs 165lbs more than a stock, N/A 240 with A/C and all intact, and we're in agreement that an LSx weighs 90-100lbs more than a B230, sans turbo equipment, is it really hard to believe that weights between the two, especially with a large turbo and all of it's support equipment hung in the front of the car, are going to be very, very similar?

Full disclosure: I haven't V8 swapped my 245, nor is it on the horizon, but the math seems to put the two powertrain options very close in terms of weight.

Let's try to simplify for you -- you said "A B230F sits at around 350lbs with accessories...." and "Correct me if I'm wrong, but LS1s sit around 400lbs in the same state."

My experience says you're wrong. An 9.2" deck height aluminum block LS weighs almost exactly the same as an 8.2" cast iron block SBF w/aluminum heads - about 430 lbs WITHOUT accessories, exhaust manifolds or full induction system. Add the all that to the V8 so we have a "with accessories" comparison and the difference is even greater depending on how it's equipped - 460 is about as light as they get. I brought up cast iron LSx motors because far and away WAY more of those are being swapped into 240's than the aluminum block motors. And it's because you can pick up the 5.3L and 6.0L versions of them for very little money coming out of trucks/suvs at the boneyard. VERY FEW people are willing (or able) to spend the coin to swap in the aluminum block LS. Add another 75 lbs. to the weight differences above. And then you're telling us the turbo, a bit of piping and intercooler makes up the difference 80-110 lb. difference (155-185 lb difference for cast iron LS). I don't think so.

The way these motors make torque is entirely different and it has a big impact on the selection of drivetrain parts. It's torque and the ability to hook it that breaks drivetrain parts, not the "power" level of a 16v converted redblock. The simple fact is that the bigger displacement V8's make a lot more torque down low than any of the turbo 4's do. The lighter weight and duty transmissions and rearends live longer behind the turbo 4's than they do the V8's. And the rearends live longer if limited slip has been added because it's the spider gears that are the Dana30 weak link when the diff is open, as the stock diffs were. That and a bit more traction is why kids pull the G80 diff out of boneyard 940's for their turbo 240 hotrods. The folks rocking the turbo 4's tend to make do with stock parts way more of the time than the V8 swappers. Again - $ is an issue for most of the people playing with these. It's simply cheaper to throw a replacement rear/tranny in it than it is to upgrade most of the time. And, let's not even mention it's hard to get enough tire under the back to hook these things -- and most of the youngsters modding these are happy to let spinning tires be the "fuse". Lastly - let's not confuse the higher dollar European hotrod turbo 240's with what the average youngster is trying to do on this side of the pond. They are not comparable -- although, as you've pointed out -- they usually ameliorate the added weight of upgraded trannies and rearends. But that ain't happenin' much for your average US-based hotrodded turbo 240.

All of this points to the simple fact -- if you go V8 of any type, it's going to add weight to the car for a variety of reasons and it's quantifiable. You said "LSx swap is always the answer in this case....and it'll weigh slightly less to marginally more than the redblock." I agree that the LS swap is the answer. Your conclusions about weight, however, are simply not true. Here's the real kicker -- "I haven't V8 swapped my 245..." Get back with us with your scaled weights after you have.

Side note - my Commando bumpers and hardware weighed 59 lbs. The fiberglass versions I laid up inside them weighed 5 lbs. in front and 3.5 lbs. in the rear. Again - I'll leave the math to you as I think you can manage this less complex bit.

And - for perspective I should add - while a V8 swapped car will definitely weigh more than your turbo 4, it's not gonna be any worse than your buddy getting into the passenger seat.

To the OP - have fun with your swap!

well hell, there ya go. Hit up Yount for his 302 bits after he's gone to the almighty LS. :)

I didn't think drift cars were all that worried about weight distribution or weight on the front end? Maybe I misunderstand the formula for spinning the tires continuously.

MichaelYount wrote: Let's try to simplify for you -- you said "A B230F sits at around 350lbs with accessories...." and "Correct me if I'm wrong, but LS1s sit around 400lbs in the same state." My experience says you're wrong. An 9.2" deck height aluminum block LS weighs almost exactly the same as an 8.2" cast iron block SBF w/aluminum heads - about 430 lbs WITHOUT accessories, exhaust manifolds or full induction system. Add the all that to the V8 so we have a "with accessories" comparison and the difference is even greater depending on how it's equipped - 460 is about as light as they get. I brought up cast iron LSx motors because far and away WAY more of those are being swapped into 240's than the aluminum block motors. And it's because you can pick up the 5.3L and 6.0L versions of them for very little money coming out of trucks/suvs at the boneyard. VERY FEW people are willing (or able) to spend the coin to swap in the aluminum block LS. Add another 75 lbs. to the weight differences above. And then you're telling us the turbo, a bit of piping and intercooler makes up the difference 80-110 lb. difference (155-185 lb difference for cast iron LS). I don't think so.

I've already been corrected, and used your figures for the entirety of my last post, which you had to have read. I also notice that you've changed from your 440-450 number to 460, but I won't hold that against you. If I'm using aluminum block LSx weights, what relevance do the iron blocks have? It's not the argument I've put forward. I'll admit that saying an aluminum LS could weigh less than the redblock is enthusiastic, but it's also not going to weigh a hell of a lot more (bordering on negligible?).

I never said that the "turbo, a bit of piping and intercooler makes up the difference 80-110 lb. difference". I only said it would make the weights closer. To argue that is to say that the those items are weightless, which I don't expect anyone to do. In reality, it's the turbo, a "bit of piping", intercooler, oil cooler, brackets for the intercooler and oil cooler, hardware, etc... It may not be 110lbs (nor did I say or think it is), but if you really like, I can weigh by car before and after I turbocharge it.

The way these motors make torque is entirely different and it has a big impact on the selection of drivetrain parts. It's torque and the ability to hook it that breaks drivetrain parts, not the "power" level of a 16v converted redblock. The simple fact is that the bigger displacement V8's make a lot more torque down low than any of the turbo 4's do. The lighter weight and duty transmissions and rearends live longer behind the turbo 4's than they do the V8's. And the rearends live longer if limited slip has been added because it's the spider gears that are the Dana30 weak link when the diff is open, as the stock diffs were. That and a bit more traction is why kids pull the G80 diff out of boneyard 940's for their turbo 240 hotrods. The folks rocking the turbo 4's tend to make do with stock parts way more of the time than the V8 swappers. Again - $ is an issue for most of the people playing with these. It's simply cheaper to throw a replacement rear/tranny in it than it is to upgrade most of the time. And, let's not even mention it's hard to get enough tire under the back to hook these things -- and most of the youngsters modding these are happy to let spinning tires be the "fuse". Lastly - let's not confuse the higher dollar European hotrod turbo 240's with what the average youngster is trying to do on this side of the pond. They are not comparable -- although, as you've pointed out -- they usually ameliorate the added weight of upgraded trannies and rearends. But that ain't happenin' much for your average US-based hotrodded turbo 240.

No need to explain what breaks transmissions to me, nor is the cause of failure relevant. The fact of the matter is the redblock can make enough to break a T5 (I know there's several T5s, but I'll leave it like this for simplicity sake). I don't care if it breaks a T5 in North America or Scandinavia. In this application, the power (oh, and torque! I only use "power" for simplicity sake) needed far exceed what most people stateside are making, so I again don't see why budget and the power most redblocks make is relevant.

All of this points to the simple fact -- if you go V8 of any type, it's going to add weight to the car for a variety of reasons and it's quantifiable. You said "LSx swap is always the answer in this case....and it'll weigh slightly less to marginally more than the redblock." I agree that the LS swap is the answer. Your conclusions about weight, however, are simply not true. Here's the real kicker -- "I haven't V8 swapped my 245..." Get back with us with your scaled weights after you have.

"Quantifiable". Great word. This whole discussion hasn't had any numbers, even for your car, even though I asked for them. I'd like to see you get back to us with scaled weights, as you seem to have them.

Side note - my Commando bumpers and hardware weighed 59 lbs. The fiberglass versions I laid up inside them weighed 5 lbs. in front and 3.5 lbs. in the rear. Again - I'll leave the math to you as I think you can manage this less complex bit.

So more or less no (structural) bumpers. I was just curious there, as swapping to any of the lighter OEM bumpers won't save anywhere near 50lbs, but I'm sure you know that.

Why sink to insulting my intelligence in an internet discussion? Again, I used your figures for the entirety of my last post and welcome a more quantitative discussion. There's no need to resort to this passive aggressive BS, as that only leads us to name-calling instead of discussion.

I'm trying to figure how any of the math in this thread gives a difference greater than 100lbs.

I can't do it.

twopointtwo - Originally I posted to respond to this from you -- "....LSx swap....will weigh less...". Further, you asked us to "correct me if I'm wrong." I did. Not sure why you think that's snippy on my part.

I quantified the gain at 165 lbs. You seem to have forgotten that ("This whole discussion hasn't had any numbers, even for your car, even though I asked for them." It appears that you simply don't believe them - that's the only conclusion I can reach. So - back to my little black book of recorded corner scale numbers/notes - just for you. Pre swap (82 242DL, a/c, 2.1L, 4 speed, Dana30 rear, stock bumpers, battery up front, no junk in trunk) - LF-RF-LR-RR -- 828-796-630-705 -- 2959. Post swap (no a/c, 5.0L efi w/aluminum heads, T5, 8.8" Ford rear, battery in trunk, no junk in trunk) - 858-824-640-713 -- 3035. +76 lbs. Bathroom scaled the A/C components and bumpers - 90 lbs. 90+76=166, hence my 165 lb gain for the drivetrain swap conclusion.

Playing with the scales is enlightening. Moving a 40 lb. battery from 1' in front of the front axle to 2' behind the rear axle shifts about 20 lbs off the front and adds 60 lbs to the rear. Opening the driver's door all the way takes 15 lbs. off the passenger side and adds it to the driver's side. For alignment and setting cross corners to 50/50, I removed all the junk in the trunk (about 80 lbs. of spare, jumpers, tools, jacks, etc.) and added 180 lbs. of free weights in the driver's seat to sim track conditions. I have all those numbers if you'd like them...

Repeating since you seemed to have missed it the first time - I mentioned cast iron LS weights because that is far and away the most common swap going on right now. The aluminum stuff is simply too costly for most folks swapping LS's into old Volvos. Add 75 lbs. to the 165 if you're using a 5.3 or 6.0 from a truck. If you go T56 instead of T5 add about 55 lbs. If you're keeping your GT40/P cast iron heads on your (again, more common today) Explorer sbf swap, add 50 lbs. If you can afford to put the aluminum LS in and put a T5 behind it and upgrade the rear end - you're gonna add about the same 165 as my swap did. Hopefully there's enough quantification there to meet your needs for detail. Most of it was covered before.

Summary: will it weigh less after the drivetrain swap? No. Depending on engine/drivetrain choices and accessories - your 240 V8 swap will net you 150-250 lbs. in additional weight. It's going to be about like adding a passenger. And if you make some judicious changes, you can offset some of it and help with front/rear balance.

Since you've told us you haven't actually done the swap or added the turbo to yours - where did your weights come from?

[URL=http://s937.photobucket.com/user/MichaelYount/media/Volvo%20exterior%20shots/Volvo282_zps6f47f8f6.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s937.photobucket.com/user/MichaelYount/media/242%20V8%20engine%20shots/2014-02-06170855_zps8eb091ef.jpg.html][/URL]

In reply to MichaelYount:

There are several quotes from your posts that are obviously attempts at belittling twopointwo as a person instead of or in addition to refuting his facts.

"Let's try to simplify for you"

"Again - I'll leave the math to you as I think you can manage this less complex bit."

Please don't act like you don't know that.

Goddammit, Mopar. See what you've done?