Volvo P1800ES...kinda

bentwrench wrote: Please get rid of the water pump driven fan.

Why? I see a clutch fan as more reliable than electric option and "Reliable" was at the top of the requirements list. Hot rod cooling fans don't seem to have a very good reputation for staying alive.

Seems that the Engine Master's video has convinced everyone that an engine driven fan is the devils choice. Maybe if it were a race car, but not a real factor is a street driven cruiser.

I do think it is going to need a duct of some sort, and that might cause me to pull the electric off the shelf.

And while we are on the subject of reliability, the more I delve into it, the more I become concerned about the FITECH throttle body. It might end up as wall art. It is hard to find FITECH owners who will drive beyond their insured recovery range. I am hoping that it is more a function of the only people who post on the FITECH forums are those that have problems.

Whatever you do -- a shroud (mentioned it earlier in the thread) on the fan side and ducting on the grill side should be used to optimize the fan. The OEM's have been using about 15 million electric fans a year for the last, oh, 30 years or so. The only fan failures I've ever had on any vehicles (since '71) were 1) thermo clutch failure on a Ford Bronco, and 2) plastic fan blade failure on an Explorer. Never had a fan or relay or thermal switch fail. FWIW. And no one with any sense uses the 'hot rod' or speed shop specials. You rob the junkyard for a used OEM or you use a brand that supplies OEM fans like SPAL. The dual 11" fully shrouded/vented SPAL set up on mine has been in use now for 15 years....never missed a beat. Controlled with a variable speed DCC controller that only turns the fans as fast as needed to stay at the temp set point. Very efficient. Very quiet. And unlike a mechanical fan, where you have the least air moved when you need it most, electrics move the most air when you need it most.

FWIW. Enjoy the fishing! The project will be there when you return.

edit -- clearly, your cooling needs will be notably different than what we have to deal with "down south"....

MichaelYount wrote: Whatever you do -- a shroud (mentioned it earlier in the thread) on the fan side and ducting on the grill side should be used to optimize the fan. The OEM's have been using about 15 million electric fans a year for the last, oh, 30 years or so. The only fan failures I've ever had on any vehicles (since '71) were 1) thermo clutch failure on a Ford Bronco, and 2) plastic fan blade failure on an Explorer. Never had a fan or relay or thermal switch fail. FWIW. And no one with any sense uses the 'hot rod' or speed shop specials. You rob the junkyard for a used OEM or you use a brand that supplies OEM fans like SPAL. The dual 11" fully shrouded/vented SPAL set up on mine has been in use now for 15 years....never missed a beat. Controlled with a variable speed DCC controller that only turns the fans as fast as needed to stay at the temp set point. Very efficient. Very quiet. And unlike a mechanical fan, where you have the least air moved when you need it most, electrics move the most air when you need it most. FWIW. Enjoy the fishing! The project will be there when you return. edit -- clearly, your cooling needs will be notably different than what we have to deal with "down south"....

I do appreciate the concerns and you can rest assured that despite what people might think, most of the mechanical design stuff is new to me. Also somewhat timely as yesterday I spent two hours in traffic waiting to cross the border to get the new rad. I have little time for cars that overheat in traffic. And you might not be surprised to know that the only experience I do have with electric fan are of the aftermarket chinesium variety.

Junkyard dodge intrepid fans. They cool my 425rwhp duster, my 3.4 sfi s10, my 350 el Camino.....

Cheap, two speed, and common as dirt in the junkyard.

NOHOME wrote: I do appreciate the concerns and you can rest assured that despite what people might think, most of the mechanical design stuff is new to me. Also somewhat timely as yesterday I spent two hours in traffic waiting to cross the border to get the new rad. I have little time for cars that overheat in traffic. And you might not be surprised to know that the only experience I do have with electric fan are of the aftermarket chinesium variety.

To be clear - I don't have any concerns about your approach. For many, many reasons, I just don't think the mechanical fan is the best mousetrap --- that's why they all but disappeared from new cars many, many years ago. Having lived in Atlanta, Houston, Knoxville (TN) and Charlotte for all of my adult life -- I don't like overheating cars either. Which is why I did my first conversion from a mechanical fan to an electrical fan on my daughter's 1976 242 Volvo in Houston back in 1989.

Touched on before -- but what opened my eyes was this simple fact: an electric fan moves the maximum amount of air it can when it's most needed - as the car sits still in traffic. A mechanical fan moves the LEAST amount of air it can under same circumstances. Think about it.

I think Nohome will have fewer issues with overheating where he lives than you guys in the southern US...sure, it gets hot in the northern US and Canada in the summer, but generally not to the level you have to deal with. With a good radiator and mechanical clutch fan in good condition I think he'll be all right.

ive been using the very fan type on the Molvo for 30 years on street/strip cars down to the low 11s.for our climate and typical driving conditions they work absolutely fine.theyre dead reliable,even at 20+ years old,pass plenty of air with stock pulleys(no underdrives),and with the rad that's on it itll be gravy.eliminates the extra crap associated with cheap control boxes,switches,relays,wiring etc etc. 4 bolts and youre done,thats simple and easy.

petey wrote: eliminates the extra crap associated with cheap control boxes,switches,relays,wiring etc etc. 4 bolts and youre done,thats simple and easy.

Careful, next thing you know he'll be putting a carb on it....

that's been my recommendation since the beginning of my involvement.

That's why I said it petey.....

Sold my last carb'd car and bought my first injected (ok, except on racer) in 1978...I'm clearly on the other side of the fence.

I'll give an old fashioned +1 to the carb over FiTech- only because I'm not sure about product support and 'off the shelf' replacement parts.

Ie; Stop at any O'reilly/Pep Boys and you can probably find a rebuild kit to fix whatever ails your Holley carb anywhere on the continent. Replacement parts for a FiTech throttle body... that's a big question mark to me.

I am on the middle on the fence. The Fitech is bought and the O2 bung is in the exhaust.

What we need to keep in mind is that for a while I was on a mission to make this thing move 100' and back on its own power. A lot of decisions were made with that as the prime motivator; the engine driven fan, single wire alternator and carb were in this category.

In the meantime, word on the street (The Fitech home page and the various FB groups) is that the Fitech is not all that it is cracked up to be, and that expecting it to work out of the box and self tune, is not realistic. So,nothing fatal, but nevertheless a project in its own right that I did not need with a deadline looming. On the back burner it went.

Now that the deadline has come and gone, the throttle body may or may not come off the shelf since reliable long term service is emerging as another thing that does not seem to be a Fitech forte; you might not want to do a cross country drive with the Fitech unless you have a spare in the trunk. The loop that keeps running in my mind is that since it is paid for, I should at least give it a try. On the other hand, if I decide to sell it, it will be worth more if it has never been out of the box and tasted fuel.

That all said, while I would really like to fire this thing and go for some shake-down drives, I am not a huge fan of carburetors in today's world. The exhaust and float vents leave a raw fuel miasma and they are seasonal in temperament. Very few people would want to DD a carb today given the option.

Now..The Minion DOES has this LS engine thing sitting in his backyard. They are kinda made to work with EFI from the factory. Maybe take a tape measure over next time I stop for a beer

The new Demon carbs are about the best thing going, IMO, in the carb department. I bolted one on out of the box to my wife's '68 Camaro, and it works wonderfully. They basically took the old Thermoquad carb and updated it to work better. And be E10 compatible.

Ford factory EFI hardware is cheap, plentiful and reliable. Use an EEC IV and call it a day.

Going LS seems silly with all the work you've done so far and it still wouldn't look "old skool" with its plenum.

the holley carb is,if you just take the time to screw with it a really reliable,tunable piece that has gotten a bad rap from WAAAAAAY to many people who just take it out of the box(or worse,get a USED one and slap it on),don't tune it to the engine or driving style,over carbing is rampant btw...no theyre not for an amateur to just slap on and be perfectly tuned,but same can be said for ANY fuel delivery system.i wanna put a dual tunnel ram with 2 450s on a Coyote.thats a long term goal for me. AND NO LS,you know why

I enjoy a good efi system but if you're after a vintage look, you gotta run a carb. There are some modern ones that seem to fix all the problems associated with carbs and by installing a wide band O2 sensor, you can get them running nearly as good as efi. I had Webers on my 911 and after some dyno tuning with a wideband, they ran flawlessly for years. I have heard good things about the Demon carb and plan on getting one for my 1969 Suburban.

the demon IS a good carb,but still basically a holley with billet blocks and bases.the tuning procedures and functions are still the same,except some do have replaceable high speed and idle air bleeds-great if you have an insane amount of duration on the cam and idle signal is crap,but on an E cammed street engine the stock calibrations of the 670 street avenger will be spot on.just tune idle mix and speed to highest vacuum and that part is done--the SA even has a secondary idle adjust screw instead of the older holley method of a tiny set screw UNDERNEATH the base plate.now you can accent the idle air input without cranking the primaries excessively and activating the transfer slot into the power circuit.easy peasy

petey wrote: now you can accent the idle air input without cranking the primaries excessively and activating the transfer slot into the power circuit.

Speaking of "demons" - spells, incantations and weird science

Hum that's not good news about the fitech... I just picked up there 400hp unit used for my 302 in the rx7. Im a week away from installing it, I will let you know how it is for my motor. Definitely more involved reading some forums but I still think it will be better then the carb I have.

....and you have a little of the human experience dynamic - folks MUCH more likely to post about a problem than when everything worked just fine.

Let's get it running first and we can debate details like that a bit later.

For what it's worth I'm in the edelbrock/holley/demon/Quadrajet carb or Holley EFI camp.

Ford 302 in a P1800ES and you want the induction setup to look classic? Why not reach for a top shelf quartet of Weber's, like so;

Or what about the FiTech controlled by a Megasquirt? That self-learn part is kind of out the window but it seems like the best of all things and you've got most everything needed save for the MS itself.

pres589 wrote: Ford 302 in a P1800ES and you want the induction setup to look classic? Why not reach for a top shelf quartet of Weber's, like so; Or what about the FiTech controlled by a Megasquirt? That self-learn part is kind of out the window but it seems like the best of all things and you've got most everything needed save for the MS itself.

Funny you should mention that...The Minion just yanked this 8 stack EFI out of the Eleanor clone and replaced with a Holley analog fuel leak. Basically, it came down to not being able to forecast how many hours it was going to take to sort out and tune the contraption. Could have been one hour or 100.

As for Weber analog fuel leakers; had one on the MGB for about 10 years and never did manage to get rid of the throttle-on bog or get the mileage above 20 mpg. They seem to be best suited for cars that only see foot to the floor use.

make some manifolds and run some GSXR throttle bodies and megasquirt, add trumpets and it'll look the part.

In reply to simon_C:

Because that is essentially the exact same thing as the 8-stack system his son just yanked out, with all of the same issues.

I still say the easy button for this particular car is Ford OEM EFI from a Rustang 5.0. It won't be flashy, but assuming the engine you've installed is fairly close to stock, it'll just work. No computer tuning. No B.S. with jets and accelerator pumps. Just plug in the sensors and drive.