Bench Racing Mini vs Spridget

Seems theres a good population of both cars on here, if we can't actually go racing, lets bench race.

Similarities

• Engine - both use the BMC A-series.  Mini 850cc-1275cc, Spridget 998cc - 1275cc
• Time in production - Spridget 1958-1980, Mini 1959 - 2000
• Weight - VERY close  1400 - 1600lbs for both. Varies from older to newer cars
• FWD vs RWD
• 8 or 10 inch rims vs 13 inch rims
• 2 seat vs 4 seat, sports car vs ....  well, what do you catagorize a Mini as?
• Minis seem to cost more and a lot more of them were made, cultural icon status impacts this.

I've never driven a Mini, or even ridden in one.  I have a bugeye and have driven a later spridget that was tuned up at an autocross.  

For me, theres something to be said for roadster fun. 

In reply to Apexcarver :

Like you I prefer the Spridget. Open  air yet adequate  room.  Sport at its finest in minimalism. 
While I would have preferred cut away doors like Triumph TR3, Morgan , and MGTD  to me the Spridget is the ideal road carver.  Nimble and very flickable,  well suited to auto cross.  
The Taxi cab  errr,   Mini was a fine little family sedan with all the benefits Of a family sedan with some nod to sporty ness.   Yet to be fair, most of us are forced to grow up and that does mean added seats. 
 

The engines in them are unbelievably brilliant  as basic and simple as possible, They taught 100's of thousands how to work on cars when the alternative was big chrome plated barges  filled with complex things like four barrel carburetors and automatic transmissions.  
It's like Henry Ford came back to his early Model T days  and designed a car for the people in the 1960's  

The Mini led to the Honda Civic which admittedly was done better. And took over market share but only because British management failed to see the forest for the trees.  

In reply to frenchyd :

One thing I loved is the front engines formula Juniors  made from those cars. So elegantly simple yet with a flavor of real racing. 
Too bad we can't have something like that today?

 I wonder what we'd source for those?  

Driven both of them. I had an MG Midget and my Brother had a Cooper S. Both were basically street legal go-karts.

The Mini is where I got my hate for FWD. No doubt that in the right hands the Mini would have run circles around the Midget, but those hands were not mine and as a result I spent a lot of time under-steering across some corner-lawns in the old hood. The Midget was polite enough to just loop the tail around and stay on the road, albeit facing the wrong way.

The "Bus Driver" steering wheel ergonomics of the Mini also take some getting used to.

frenchyd said:

In reply to frenchyd :

One thing I loved is the front engines formula Juniors  made from those cars. So elegantly simple yet with a flavor of real racing. 
Too bad we can't have something like that today?

 I wonder what we'd source for those?  

Formula Ford is going over to a honda engine. https://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/05/scca-approves-honda-fit-based-engine-for-formula-f/

So I guess thats the similarity.  That having been said, most of the lower formula classes are playing with bike engines, as they did back then.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Apexcarver :

The engines in them are unbelievably brilliant  as basic and simple as possible, They taught 100's of thousands how to work on cars when the alternative was big chrome plated barges  filled with complex things like four barrel carburetors and automatic transmissions.  
It's like Henry Ford came back to his early Model T days  and designed a car for the people in the 1960's  

 

That's what has struck me, how bloody simple the car is. Before playing with this car, most of my exposure to carbs was 4 barrel domestics and by comparison the SU carbs are simple as a hammer, even laughably so. Its pretty hard to find a simpler engine to play with. Balancing two carbs isnt even that hard with the right tool.   On the bugeye, the "starter solenoid" has made most people I've shown it to laugh. Its a pull cable that physically completes the circuit between the starter and battery...

I've driven both but only at autocross. I found the Mini to be hugely chuckable, quickly trail the brakes and tweak the wheel.....oversteery goodness (NOHOME......teenage driver induced understeer?). If I had to choose I'd probably go with a Sprite as I prefer RWD, not for the driving aspects, becuase they are easier to work on (not that a Mini isn't easy to work on) but at the end of the day my heart likes the Mini better........I don't know why it just does.

There really isn't a wrong pick between the two; you can get 85-90hp in streetable trim, which given their lightweight makes them scoot along well enough for traffic. There is great support for both cars. The Sprite lends itself more easily to motor swaps. Motor swaps in a Sprite are also cheaper.  

A friend has a Spridget that he's looking to sell at some point but I already have 6 cars, 2 motorcyles and a Kart.

Apexcarver said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to frenchyd :

One thing I loved is the front engines formula Juniors  made from those cars. So elegantly simple yet with a flavor of real racing. 
Too bad we can't have something like that today?

 I wonder what we'd source for those?  

Formula Ford is going over to a honda engine. https://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/05/scca-approves-honda-fit-based-engine-for-formula-f/

 

So I guess thats the similarity.  That having been said, most of the lower formula classes are playing with bike engines, as they did back then.  

Bike engines?  Yes in the 500 cc class ( Cooper) immediately following WW2  but they were methanol burning, high compression, wild camshaft, too large a carburetor  motors that had difficulty running.  
Formula  Junior in the late 1950's used BMC A, Fiat, Saab, and Ford. Based on production engines of 1000 cc. 

Formula  Ford was based on the Ford Kent engines. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Totally get what you are saying.  I guess the principle is that if you average the two you have what is happening now. Production bike engines running in stock (other than oiling system) configurations. 

I had a Mk2 Sprite and now have a Mini. I like the Mini better. 
 

Is there a video like this featuring spridgets fighting above their weight class?

No 8" wheels on Minis. They came with 10", 12" or 13" wheels. Of course, 10" wheels are the correct answer.

25 years ago modern water cooled 1000cc bike engines became readily availible for $600-$1000, so automobile engines in small bore single seaters went the way of the dinosuar.  Bike engines in the 50s & 60S didn't offer a significant inprovement over the well developed automotive engines of the time. Once watercooled twin cam motors became standard that's when the bike motor became the way to go.

I'm currently running in C-sedan which is full of rapid Minis; they are getting amazing performance out of the BMC A-series engines, 115hp at the wheels (they were something like 30whp stock)  but these motors are being rebuilt every other weekend. Note these motors are also punched out to 1380cc. 

I've owned and raced both. My '69 Spridget I loved and was the car that started me down the slipery slope of LBC's. I rebuilt just about everything on it and that was part of the fun. The only time it left me walking was when I got it wrong, bounced off a curb and blew the tire. (college days, might have had a few cold ones first) My 2012 JCW Mini I dailyed for 5-years and autocrossed on occasion with with success. I had to change brake pads with every oil change. In the end, the timing chain broke  at about 100K miles (faulty chain tensioner) destroyed the motor, no help from BMW and sold for a song...Ugh! Spridget's rule.....

In reply to dougie :

Not the same thing.  Spridget sand the BMC mini are. But the later BMW mini isn't even close. 

frechyd I'm going to be contrary (what a shock) and say that the new Mini is close; they are hugley chuckable (I've only driven them on track), punch above thier wieght and the maintenance intervals are about the same as original Minis.

I'm a lifelong spridget guy, but...

Well, old Mini vs Spridget is one thing because they share an engine and (for the most part) era. The new MINI (I see they denote the new ones with all caps?) is bringing a sandwich to an apples V oranges discussion. 

Whats the corollary for a new MINI?   MINI vs Miata of a similar year?  Late NB though ND?  I have a hard time thinking the new MINI would win that one. 

I feel like the Mini following is because it is small, light, and a cultural icon. FWD is usually a determent, but the culture factor overcomes it for Mini. They obviously did things right on the car, or it wouldnt have stayed in production for 40 years. In a sense, without being a hatchback - it was the genesis for the hot hatch. Small, boxy, with a tossable suspension. 

That vs the siren call of the RWD two seat roadster. 

If you were to compare other instances where a RWD two seat roadster went up against a car with the same engine FWD, the FWD usually is a fairly obvious loser for following.  Take the NA Miata vs the Mazda 323 (non-turbo)

I checked with my sources and the conclusion was that the two cars are very close indeed - less than a half second apart at most tracks, and that the Spridget has a slight advantage on a track with decently long straights as it is better aerodynamically than the 'little brick'.

One Mini racer opined that the ony reason they had tires on the rear of the Mini was to keep the back bumper from dragging on the ground - the handling was all up front, and they were a lot more fun to watch than the less flashy Spridgets. Ditto for ralley - the old footage on the Coopers was just as exciting as the later faster small sedans.

2016 Mid Ohio Runoffs:

FProd, Midget:
Joe Huffaker - 1:36.343 (qualifying), 119.791mph (race)
        GT-L, Mini 1:36.940 118.920mph (race)

GT-L has open induction and the Mini is slightly lighter, but basically a saw off.

The Huffaker GT5 (GT-L) Mini is RWD. The engine is turned 90 degrees from factory and the entire car is a tube frame silhouette of a Mini. Doug Peterson's Fortech Mini is similar. There is not much Mini in those Minis, so not sure if they are all that applicable in a comparison vs Spridgets.

Blue car is a Mini. Black car is a Mini in name and (somewhat) in looks. The steering wheel in the Huffaker Mini is about where the seat back originally was and the driver sits about where the rear seat would've been.

For lots of nice pics of Mini on track see: https://stanceworks.com/2014/07/can-am-mini-challenge-2014/

Minis are absolutely hilarious to drive. There is no upper limit to corner entry speed that I've been able to discern, and you're crouched over that bus wheel laughing like a madman. It may be possible to go faster, but I don't think you can have any more fun doing it.

I've never been lucky enough to drive a Spridget, but I have worked on both and the Spridget is a whole lot more comfortable to wrench on. But I never once considered giving up the Mini for it.

I owned a '72 Mini with a 1275cc transplant in it. It was a hoot, but you had to learn to throw into corners. Today I own a MINI Cooper S and a supercharged NB Miata. @Apexcarver...I haven't had either on track, but my gut says I'd bet on the MINI, especially against a normally aspirated Miata.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

IDK, looking at SOLO results and just grabbing, say, 2010 (back in teh Hoosier times) the best Stock class results for each were 

2007 Mazda MX-5 in CS @ 120.717 Seconds

1996 Mazda Miata in ES @ 122.95 Seconds

2007 Mini Cooper S in DS @ 126.494 Seconds

2006 MINI Cooper in HS @ 127.66 Seconts

Road course results in non-radically modified classes would be interesting, but on the AutoX side, the MINI doesnt look to win.

As far as the vintage cars, I was going to try to look at vintage racing, but had trouble finding results.

At the vintage races I attend the Minis are faster than the Spridgets. This may come down to the fact the the Spridgets are running 1275s and the Minis are running 1380cc motors in C-sedan. I can run within about 1.5-2 seconds a lap of the top Sprigets but the fastest Minis are 3-5  seconds faster. 

That sounds like a lot more than just an extra 100cc of motor.