Early Bosch fuel injection help please?

Learn to walk before you start trying to run.

Get the V12 running on MS.

Then add the turbo.

Then add the E85. 

In reply to Ian F :

I’ve had the car running on the stock system.  So That is known.

This doesn’t need to be streetable so  idle quality, emissions etc doesn’t matter. 

 The switch to MS, is that something that’s a plug and play?  Another words hook it up correctly and it will figure out what to do to start and run, then learn as it goes until it’s running OK?  If not how do you program it to do that?    How do I plug a lap top in to see what I’m getting?  do I use the existing sensors and fuel pump?   Or use what will be required for E85 & turbo’s.  What about injectors?  Will the stock injectors work with the higher pressures of the alternate fuel pump or will they need replacing too? Can they be modified ?  

Someplace I have a formula for how much fuel is required for how much horsepower.  Should I work backwards from that  and test the modified injectors first to ensure they flow sufficiently?  

Will Delco injectors work where Lucas injectors once we’re or is that another modification required?  Can I go too big on the injectors?  

frenchyd said:

In reply to bentwrench :

I have a brand new in the box mega Squirt. I don’t have the knowledge on how to make it speak V12’s with Turbo’s and E85 

http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

A V12 is just 2 straight 6's hooked together

E85 is going to need larger injectors than gas

Boost is going to require larger injectors than un-boosted, fuel supply may become an issue especially on E85. 

The fuel pressure needs to rise in sync with boost pressure, so the injectors dont get smaller as boost rises.

A V12 presents some challenges as a basic MS system has only 2 injection channels and it will be problematic to run 6 injectors on a single driver, so unless you have a MS3 a MS is not a good choice for a V12.  http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms3manuals/

Pump E85 sucks, it is not consistent especially in water content, the only reason it has gas in it is so folks won't drink it. You don't need E85 to boost a V12, I have a street driven non-race car that makes 20# of boost and burns 92 octane pump gas.

If you want proper E85 buy it here  https://www.thunderboltracingfuel.com  No water content, it goes through an extra distillation process that removes near all of the water and is stored in plastic sealed drums, not in open rail cars and gas station underground tanks. The distilleries that make the commercial ethanol do not have storage facilities and the gas distributors have not installed new tanks to store ethanol, they have found a loop hole and simply store the ethanol in rail cars on sidings near the distributors. Water content is not regulated, gas content is only regulated to make the ethanol un-drinkable.

. In reply to bentwrench :

You aren’t telling me anything I don’t know I used to be able to buy ethanol direct from the refinery due to a dirt track connection. I’ll reconfirm that connection

I have to conform to the rules regarding denaturing  but they do allow me to bring race gas in sealed cans which is actually a step up from most sources

I’m also aware of the need for a sizable increase in fuel volume as I combine boost with E85.  Earlier on this site there was someone who modified stock injectors to use with his boosted Corvette turn into a cart. 

If that isn’t possible I want to see if the injectors from a Trail Blazer/Envoy will work.  They are about twice as large. The advantage of those is the fuel rail is perfect for use in a JaguarV12.  

I posted earlier about getting variable pressure  fuel pump and tying it in to boost pressure  so I’m aware. 

With regard water absorption, Most refineries/distilleries I’ve sold equipment to send their ethanol out to oil refiners via pipeline.  Not truck! Or rail.  Too expensive.  The only trucks I see are farmers getting the remnants of the distilling process for animal feed or farmers hauling in grain to process.   Of course I live in the corn belt.

I never seen them use plastic drums. Not sure that would be legal for shipping flammable substances.  

If you want to keep it simple and don't want the learning curve that Megasquirt entails, consider older GM injection.Pre 1990 or so, the didn't use sequential (after that they did SFI, which was only sequential up to 4,000 rpm or so, IIRC).

They used one injector per cylinder, but it wasn't timed, it was batch fire, which sounds inelegant, asking the released fuel to just sort of hang about until the cylinder near it went to intake stroke, but it worked very well.  You would need the ECM that had the references fo positive pressure - IIRC, it was 1985 Fiero that I used when I turboed my V6.  The program runs bychip so you can easily get an expert to burn you a chip, try it and then refine it. I went through that with my tuned 3.4 V6 in my Jamaican bodied MGA and it wasn't overly painful.

You could easily make up a manifold - you can buy weld-in injector bungs, and if you really wanted to, you could use the existing carbs simply as throttle bodies - no fuel, just the throttle plates opening and closing. 

It would still be a fair bit of work and development time.  Might want to consider using a saloon twin carb set up, perhaps with a couple of HD8s for enough flow and do the usual things needed for them to function under boost.  Easiest to fit the carbs before the blower/turbo and avoid pressurizing issues.

In reply to wspohn :Ironic that you mention such a thing. Because That is the approach I was most comfortable with.  

I can count on a couple of fingers those who are comfortable with Jaguar’s system.  They want to profit big time off that knowledge.  

Since The V12 has had EFI since 1975 when they adapted Bosch batch firing system,  I’ve got most of what I need already there.  

I can easily enough adapt the GM system used in their 4.2  six cylinder engine since the cylinder spacing is perfect.  

The good news is I can use the GM throttle assembly by increasing the bore in the Jaguar casting. And drilling/ tapping  holes to bolt it together.  With no other changes I’ve increased the air flow  by 60%  and have injectors at least 60% bigger. ( assuming I can use/adapt the Delco injectors to replace the Lucas injectors). 

That’s junkyard stuff, at a budget I can easily afford. 

It’s the ECM required to fire 12 injectors  though that has me concerned.  Ignition is handled by itself and I’m comfortable with working with that.  

The Jaguar fuel system works off a trigger in the distributor.  Maybe I can figure out how to use that and meet the increase the require volume to meet the use of my E85 and the twin turbo’s. 

For a while I thought I might just be able to increase fuel pump pressure to increase enough to meet needs but I lack anyway to send that signal. Or for the fuel pump to read the signal  to increase pressure. 

When I first built a twin turbo V12 I simply increased fuel at the regulator. And then at 2 psi boost used a cheap FMU to trigger the cold start injectors.  Which made up enough to sorta work. ( as long as I kept boost down under 6 psi.) 

Back then Champion  sold gold palladium plugs that would fit  and the gold allowed it to keep firing even ugly rich. Plus the slight lean effect I got as I approached 6000 rpm cleaned the plugs well enough to keep working. 

Well you seem determined to make the old system work and I applaud your skills and enthusiasm.  The Bosch system will probably batch fire a bunch of injectors, it is plenty tough.

Good luck and I am sure you will get it working, but consider adding a wide band and data logging on it to see how things are running.

In reply to porschenut :

Jaguar simply used 3 units to fire 4 cylinders each.  Triggered by 6 spinning magnets in the distributor. Once I figure out how to increase fuel pressure with boost, I’ve got a workable system.