Early model snobbery

It was brought up in the hot rod thread. Air cooled VW's snubbing the water cooled and late model bugs. The modern BMW Mini getting the cold shoulder from Austin and Morris Mini owners. This can be problem particularly in the two cases above where the bug and minis were both only classics with no modern version for so long. Groups with continuous lines into the present have had to constantly deal with this. Corvette owners of 50-70 models are seriously outnumbered at Corvette shows to where they often don't bother trying to attend. Are they snobs or have they really nothing in common but a name plate? A local European car repair shop had a recent show and I brought my Fiat. Mostly there were modern BMW's with plastic covers hiding the engine and zero interest in a 30 year old 100hp Italian sportscar. This is likely how those bug owners feel. I think that there are different mindsets between new or old model owners with only a few that are comfortable in both worlds. Knowing this and working with it is the answer to successfully integrating the two in one show or club. Cheers Ron

Every generation of MG owners since AT LEAST the era of the K-series Magnettes has looked down its nose at the next generation. It's a tradition.

Wasser-pumper Porsches. Blech....

No doubt there's snobbery in some cases, but why would it be incumbent for a Mini fan to have much interest in a MINI? Or vice versa? The two cars have nothing in common except the name and some styling cues.

Even when there is a direct lineage (VW, Vette, etc.), lack of interest doesn't necessarily equal snobbery. I don't expect someone driving an XC90 to even recognize that what I'm driving is a Volvo too, and I'm probably not going to spend much time in the XC90 row at a Volvo meet.

I don't think I'm a snob -- I just don't much care. And vice versa.

Snobery closes off the appreciation of beauty and craftmanship. There's an old song by John Prine "Everybody needs some that they can look down on" or something to that effect. There's always some rational that tells us what we have in the garage is better then the other guy and we look for the minutest reason to back it up.

I own 2 Sunbeams and think the sun and moon rise above them. But, once upon a time I wanted a MGC or TR4 or TR6. If I found the "right" one before I found the Alpine, I'd be just as fanatical. Most of us find something, take it home and it grows on us. Then we get nuts...

Since I own a classic Mini, I've seen the snobbery at shows first hand. And I must admit to being a partial participant. While the MINI is a fine car and I have nothing against it, it is a totally different mindset of owner who brings one to a show vs we Mini owners. Most of us toil over our British Standard (BS) vehicles to keep them in running order. The MINI owners simply purchase accessories and bolt them on. We struggle to justify the cost of keeping such a generally impractical toy while they simply make payments on a sensible economy car. It's not that most of us dislike the other one's car, it's just we have purchased them for very different reasons and usually the demographics of the owners are quite different. Looking at a bunch of MINIs just doesn't hold any interest for me so I don't bother. Not snobbery so much as disinterest.

ddavidv - Very well put. I find this to also be true with vintage vs late model Mustangs. Both owners love their cars, but for very different reasons, and I find it's no more likely that a vintage owner will be interested in a late model of that same car than any other late model car.

I think the problem is that the early cars are completely different from the later cars. My first two cars were air cooled VWs. You really had to suffer to drive those cars. Pretty much the same with the Minis. I honestly only remember seeing one Mini in real life (in Atlanta Ga), before they became "classic".

Not real sure I understand the CB MGB vs RB MGB thing though.

I see it a lot in the Land Rover world, but it is usually the other way around: owners of the newer models hardly recognize the Series trucks, or make no association with their Range Rover or LR III.

Early Disco and Range Rover owners are different. And the Few Defenders that are here in the US are really just Series owners with a different name.

Having said this, however, I was passed on the Interstate by a Range Rover (circa 2002) while I was driving my '65. I thought the kids were going to fall out of the windows waving at me when they passed. You could tell there was real excitement in that SUV because they saw an old Landy on the road. Some people recognize the heritage, others could care less.

Everyone has their deep seeded specific likes and dislikes. Your brain is wired that way. I can be at a show and have two identical cars next to each other, but something like the color can sway me. The car with the color I like gets the honor of filling my camera's memory card up with a dozen or more shots. The other one won't even get a stare. When you factor in different model years, etc., it can have an even more polarizing effect. So yes, I can understand how snobbery arises and works at a car show. Is the singles dating scene any different? You tend to naturally gravitate towards certain women--everytime.

Here is what concerns me:

Let's say Fiat comes to America. Our club of 80 members, of whom 20 are active, welcomes the new owners to our club. Now there could easily be twice as many (and growing) modern Fiat owners in the club as vintage models and the vintage crowd feels pushed out. If we try to ignore the differences, the club just might explode.

Cheers Ron

I deal with something like that on my guitar site, Ron.. when I started it, Gretsch was just starting to come back, and probably 90% of the people on there owned vintage Gretsches. Now, it's probably 70-80% new guitar owners.

The thing is, even though there are differences, there's a lot of shared interests (or should be). The newcomers can learn some history and tradition from the old timers, and the oldtimers can see something of their favorites re-imagined for a different time. It CAN be a winning thing, all around.

HEY! Guys its the same in the JAGUAR world, XKE guys will not even lookat my XJS Roadster, and XJS owners dont like modified cars. so i call them out to race,and they say Jaguars are about Elegance, not performance, go figure!!

I went to a local XKE shop about some work on the car,NOW get this statement, " WE DONT WORK ON XJSs"

So my remark was you dont work on them because you dont know how!

I really think it matters if there is a connection. For the Land Rover example, even LRNA doesn't really acknowledge the Series trucks. So you can't really blame the owner of a Range Rover Sport to feel any kinship with a lumbering 2.25 109.

The classic Mini has as much in common with the new one as it does with a Civic. Really, there's no connection there at all.

In both of those cases, if someone's interested in both, it's not because of the connection - no matter how tenuous. It's because that person is interested in cars. Some people are only interested in very specific cars, preferably ones that look exactly like theirs. Others are interested in a wide range.

By the way, Flyin' Miata doesn't work on RX-7s. It's not due to snobbery, it's because they're the only ones we have parts, manuals and tools for. We're specialists. It's probably the same for the XKE shop.

About the Fiat club - sounds like the exact thing the Lotus clubs have had to deal with. How's that turned out? I haven't been involved in a Lotus club since the pre-Elise days.

I was the one that posted in the other thread about the air cooled vs.water cooled VW divide. I do understand why a owner of a 1969 Beetle doesn't really care about a 2005 Beetle. You are right, the cars don't really have much of a lineage at all other than styling cues and a nameplate.

What really bothered me about the air cooled show in Ypsilanti, Mi. is that they would not even allow someone that brought a beautiful 1978 Scirocco to even pull it off the trailer and park it on the grounds with the other cars. It made no sense to me why a 1974 Karmann Ghia was considered good, but a 1978 Scirocco, just 4 yrs newer, had to load up and go home just because it has a radiator. Both of them are 30+ years old and collector cars.

On the other hand, I have been to other VW shows that welcomed everything and people seemed to enjoy them all.

Most of the shows I attend with my Capri are usually general vintage or "classic" local community shows with anything from street rods,muscle cars and restored stock domestics from the 30's-70's.

After complaining about other snobs I hate to be one myself, but I never understood the person bringing a stock 1-3 year old car and putting it on display in a show like that. I mean if I really want to see a 2007 Mustang GT, I can just drive to the mall and see them all over the place.

Yeah, that last point is one I've never understood. I don't have a problem with a guy bringing a new Ford GT to a show, because it's so rare you'll not likely see one on the road just being driven. But I couldn't care less about your brand new Saleen or Miata. Doesn't belong at a car show, IMO. Join a marque club and go have your own show; stop polluting my local collector car show with that stuff.

I think that depends a lot on the show. We have attended a number of shows around this area where the primary function is generating cash for the show sponsor. In these cases: a local police dept PAL & the emergency squad (both will allow anyone willing to pay the entry fee), and a LBC club (basically any British Empire-made car). When the object is putting money in the club or orginazation coffers, the organizers tend to get lax about what they'll allow in the show.

The Carlisle Import & Kit car show is another example. If your car is an import, you can register. Age doesn't matter... actually, it can pay as you get both your entry ticket as well as prime parking on the show field... Even if you're just going for one day.

I've experienced severe anti-new MINI sentiment from classic owners... at one show, it apparently almost came to blows... kinda silly... At the same time, I've run across a couple ow classic Mini owners who come across as if they want to crush any illegally imported Mini that has already managed to get titled in the US...

I love old Minis... some day I hope to get one... and most of the Mini owners I've met don't really care about old/semi-old/new minis... many own both... but a few really need to lighten up...

It wasn't until after I bought my 1964 MGB that I even realized that an "early pull-handle door MGB" was supposedly more desireable to have than later MGBs, even other chrome bumper MGBs. No snobbery with me, the later cars have clear advantages of course as things evolved; but I do like it that people see my car and express admiration and appreciation because it is an early model.

In the Chrysler world, you get some people who won't admit the Chrysler Corporation built anything after 1976 (except maybe trucks, Vipers, and the F/M/J bodies, if they're open minded). I think it's somewhat understandable, though - a Neon or a turbo Daytona can be fun to drive, but their handling dynamics and the means of hopping them up are so different that they do not necessarily appeal to the same crowd at all.

My F-i-L is a big Mopar fan, and he loved my Neon. Then again, he's pretty open-minded about cars in general.

You always used to get the owners of early cars not overly enthused about the 'new fangled' styling of later models. Look at T series MGs vs. anything later.

With the 1970s though, you could actually say that the newer models WERE inferior to the earlier ones, not in styling (a matter of taste in any case) but in performance, when federally mandated emissions regs gutted performance on everything.

Today, many people like the rubber bumper MGB because they are easier to find, and they aren't really into how powerful they are or how well they might handle, they just want a reliable toy to polish and play with.

Before the 1970s, new models were usually improved in technical specification (looks aside).

this old sayin,, if its got tires or tits, I love it!

FLU (Fiat Lancia Unlimited) is going to be in a good position to experience some growth if they can figure this formula out. There are roughly 600 or so members and we have usually been a fairly accepting group of folks. We do accept Yugos onto the show field after all. Name another club that does that.

When Fiat returns, FLU will be the established club that should be able to welcome new members into the fold of other enthusiasts. Most of the vintage Fiat owners I have spoken with are excited about the return, some even plan to buy one when and if it does happen.

I personally look forward to the day that we welcome the new members, bring em on. Brett

If you're a car collector you would/should gravitate to the early models. A Mk1 is always preferable to a Mk2. Maybe not mechanically but for a collector the closer you can come to "the begining" the better.

If you are looking for a car to be a daily driver your interest should probably change to the model that has the kinks worked out the meaning the newer models.

I think we all tend to focus on the cars that are from our personal definition of the "good old days" for me my interest is British cars 1960 to 1970. They are not the most practical nor the most stylish but they had character and soul. These were the cars I learned to drive in.

Steve