How hard is it to maintain a vintage race car?

I’m coming at this sport/hobby from relatively modern cars. Even for something 30 years old (like my 190E 2.3-16 project) it’s basically a matter of flushing fluids once a year and you’re ready to go. The suspension, brakes, wheel bearings, subframe mounts, etc etc seem to hold up very well: several seasons now without any real headaches.

I find myself thinking about turning my Triumph TR6 project into a vintage racer. How much more work would it be to keep it running compared to something like an E30?

Just looking at it, I get the idea that it’s more delicate. Is this just a perception?

I've never tracked a car, but have 30 years of beating on TR6s on the street and autocross courses.  I wouldn't say they are fragile cars.  They do have weaknesses that definitely need to be addressed, such as the hubs and half shafts.  I've been autocrossing a TR6 hard for around 18 years and have only had two failures.  A stock half shaft broke in a 90 degree turn at launch, and a cam ate itself.  I suspect the latter problem was caused by cheap lifters and/or inadequate zinc in the oil.

My guess is you are looking at more maintenance to keep it on the track, but the overall cost won't be significantly more.  The main problem I would expect is a general decline in new parts quality and a dwindling supply of original spares.  Gearbox parts, for instance, are getting harder to come by.

Assuming the chassis is in good shape, it will still flex too much and would certainly benefit from a proper roll bar, or even better, a full cage.  I would also upgrade the hubs and front stub axles.  Either buy an expensive built motor and a harmonic balancer for the crank, or invest in a 6000 rpm rev limiter.

I would suggest getting involved in the Friends Of Triumph team.net email list, reading posts and asking questions there.  Those guys know a lot about keeping a Triumph happy on a race track.

That’s reassuring. I’d heard about things like cranks developing axial play and wheels falling off due to broken hubs/axles. And my friends running cars like the 2002Ti always seem to be breaking wheel bearings and tearing out rear subframes. 

I guess I’m wondering if a TR6 can be built to withstand track abuse while still being “period correct” for vintage racing. And without having to be rebuilt between each race LOL.

You can build almost anything and go racing with some cash if you want reliable. Your not going to win in any vintage series without tons of recourses though.

If you are honest with yourself that you are ok running in the back of the pack then yes just about any vintage car can be made reliable and it will not self destruct on the track. Its when you stop chasing seconds and start chasing 1/10ths on a lap that ehy really sart to get eaten up.

This is one of those cases though where if you have some cash up front buying a built known car with good history is the smart play.

Hang around the pits while you're in Pittsburgh.  The Friends of Triumph (FOT) Kasner Cup  runs the July 6-8 weekend.  Should be several Tr6s (?)  in attendance...  

Gordon

Richard at GoodParts seems to have worked to address many TR6 weaknesses.  I can't say which of his upgrades will or won't be allowed in a given vintage ruleset. 

Is there actually a way that a TR6 can be made to corner with the flexi-flier chassis that it came with? I am working on one now. Installing floor panels.  It is not rusty in body or frame, but I swear if I jacked it up right in the middle, and the jack had enough lift, the front and rear tires would meet as it folded in half.

I am only half jesting.

Pete

In reply to LanEvo :

In one sense Vintage racing is like any racing, modern,  Chump car, even professional.  There are certain things you do every week. Certain things you do after so many hours and certain things you do every season.  

Each car is a little different but you have to always do it to the best of your ability.  Some people live and die by check lists. Others do things systematically, while a tiny few just wing it.  ( those are usually the one loading the car back on the trailer early) 

The unasked question is cheating.  In vintage racing you can get away with a certain amount of cheating/ updating/ fudging. 

Anything goes mechanically as long as you can’t see it.  Want to run aftermarket rods? Crankshafts? Pistons, bigger valves, port your head? Don’t worry they won’t ask you to tear the engine down.  In my whole career I’ve never seen anyone asked to do that.  ( although most clubs have that option listed in their rule book.  

Same with transmission or rear end etc.  If you do something that makes the car stronger safer more reliable nobody is likely to comment.  

Brakes get noticed.  Switch from drum to disk and comments wil be made. Firm suggestions made to return it back to drums.  

Sway bars?  Go bigger in size probably won’t get a comment  but run hollow tube adjustable sway bar and people will talk to you.  

What is said and how it’s said depends on you.  If you’re running with the Corvettes and Cobras with a Triumph the complaints will be loud and frequent. If you’re running just a little faster than similar cars of the era not much will be said. 

It’s just more fun to be pretty close to original.  You may find a Porsche to run with or another TR6. Heck maybe a slower Ferrari will keep you company or a faster MG 

The worst feeling in the world is to make your car so much faster that they move you up a class or two and you have nobody else to run with.   

In reply to LanEvo :

I’ve raced a MGTD since 1975 only once did I have a serious mechanical failure.  That car is a lot more fragile than a TR6. 

Address the known weak areas and nobody will give you grief. 

NOHOME said:

Is there actually a way that a TR6 can be made to corner with the flexi-flier chassis that it came with? I am working on one now. Installing floor panels.  It is not rusty in body or frame, but I swear if I jacked it up right in the middle, and the jack had enough lift, the front and rear tires would meet as it folded in half.

 

I am only half jesting.

 

Pete

Richard Good has been known to embarrass more modern cars with his on an autocross course.  Granted, a good bit of that may be his driving and staying with the same car for 30 years...  I saw his hillclimb/track TR6 at Carlisle this year at the PA Hillclimb pavilion, although he wasn't able to be there to really talk about it.  

There is a guy on Long Island who makes upgraded replacement frames - rat-co - but I don't know if such a frame would be vintage race legal.  But if the goal is to build an ultra-reliable vintage TR6 rules-be-damned, one of those frames would be high on my list. 

There are so many cool things to get for a TR6 that I am occasionally tempted to sell off the Spitfire and GT6 for one.  Which is somewhat ironic since the guy I bought my GT6 from sold it to buy a TR6.

Ian F said:

NOHOME said:

Is there actually a way that a TR6 can be made to corner with the flexi-flier chassis that it came with? I am working on one now. Installing floor panels.  It is not rusty in body or frame, but I swear if I jacked it up right in the middle, and the jack had enough lift, the front and rear tires would meet as it folded in half.

 

I am only half jesting.

 

Pete

Richard Good has been known to embarrass more modern cars with his on an autocross course.  Granted, a good bit of that may be his driving and staying with the same car for 30 years...  I saw his hillclimb/track TR6 at Carlisle this year at the PA Hillclimb pavilion, although he wasn't able to be there to really talk about it.  

There is a guy on Long Island who makes upgraded replacement frames - rat-co - but I don't know if such a frame would be vintage race legal.  But if the goal is to build an ultra-reliable vintage TR6 rules-be-damned, one of those frames would be high on my list. 

There are so many cool things to get for a TR6 that I am occasionally tempted to sell off the Spitfire and GT6 for one.  Which is somewhat ironic since the guy I bought my GT6 from sold it to buy a TR6.

Don’t underestimate flexible frames. Morgan has  the most flexible frame in the world ( mainly wood)  but still does really well in the handling department.   Another car that handles very well  is the Marcos all wood too!  

I race my 63 Spitfire at vintage events about 6-7 weekends a year. The car has been a race car since it came off the boat so a good deal of hardening and refining was already done when I bought the car in 2005. Over the years it's been a good mid pack car at a large events with minimial outlay.

10 gallons of racing (110 octane) gas will usually last the weekend, Front brake pads are good for a season, rear shoes for 2. A set of Hoosier TDs, ($135 each) are fast for a few sessions but work well enough to last the season. I have a two sets of rims and keep the older tires mounted for practice, storage and transport dury.

Between race maintaince is an oil and filter change (7 quarts VR1 straight 50 weight $6.99 at Advance Auto), front to back nut and bolt check, an hour or so and overall inspection. Toss in a tune up and compression check and load it up. (don't forget to wash and wax it for public events)

Seasonal work includes engine teardown, crack check crank. Replace bearings and rings if needed, valve springs and lap in valves. Every few years, some machine shop work, bore block next size, skim head for flatness, etc. I have two race prepped engines so one is in the car, the used engine in the shop during the season as a emergency spare, to be rubuilt over the wither as the primary for the next year.

As long as you don't need to have the engine and car running at 11/10th's, it's really not too bad (in terms of money and time) to have fun at vintage events. During the season, expect to spend two hours or so of prep for every hour of track time before you load the car. Show up ready and you'll have more fun.

mike h

Dido what Mike said. If you're in it for fun and don't care were you run it's pretty easy.

In reply to dougie : 2 hours of maintenance for every one hour of track time is pretty close.  That does not include getting ready, loading and unloading etc.  or the polishing, cleaning,  and touch up time . 

Nor  does it include the time upgrading to go faster.  

Your buddies and friends determine that.   I starting racing with a bone stock Jaguar engine  but in my group  there were a lot of small block Chevys. 

283 ‘s yielded to 350’s yielded to to upgrades and the ease of more than double the horsepower and then double again meant drum brakes yielded to finned Aluminum drum brakes which led to disk brakes and finally racing disk  brakes. 

Stiffer springs and sway bars followed by consulting with experts and more and more money.  

Suddenly some old back of the pack homemade special had more than$100,000 spent on it in order to run near the front. 

Like an idiot, I once took my 1954 Triumph TR-2 street car out in a vintage race with no roll bar (it was supposed to be a glorified parade).  They fussed at me about the heavy anti-sway bar on it so I disconnected one end link and told them it was a mount for the license plate. They went away and I hooked it up again.

I wish I'd had that sort of quick solution to the pretty much non-existent brakes after a lap of wailing on the all drum system. Triumphs would not be in my top hundred car list for having to slide them sideways to slow a car down.....

I don’t think you’d get that sort of response today.  In the early days when a lot of vintage cars lacked roll cages or even Roll bars. Anything that looked like it would make the car go faster than original was discouraged.  

As far as drum brakes. They can be made to stop without fading. Augie Pabst  raced his Drum braked Scarab at the front of the pack against a lot of disk braked cars like D Jags etc and never had an issue with fading.  Even at tracks known to be brake killers like Elkhart Lake.  

If that fast a car can race 500 mile enduros with drum brakes ( 1958 Lincoln drums) without fade being an issue  then a TR2 will too!  

Like everything you need to know the details on how.  

Warning this will likely be long winded.

My car is over built in many aspects and there are very few bits that are Datsun 1200. My local group VARA has a catch all class that I run. I'm in with the B-sedan car (mostly 2002s and 510s) which is where the car would run if it were 100% legal. There are minor things the organizers would be OK with but the one thing they are not is the keihin flat slide motorcycle carbs........I'm not changing those so I run GTL (under 2 liter GT) 

Most of my maintenance is oil changes after 3 events and adjust the valves after 10-12 events. I only do 4-6 events a year. I milk a set of tires 2 race weekends and 4 track days. I run the fresh tires from 2 races and then they become track day tires. 

The key for me has been under tuning or over building it.

My last engine went 5 seasons and only broke because the motor got hot and I failed to notice it right away A full on race A15 (1500cc) makes 150whp. My 5 season wonder made 99whp, I'm currently doing up another motor that may be as much as 125 but more likely around 110. I won't run something that won't go at least 3 seasons. I went to the 1500 from the 1200 motor because you had to buzz the A12 motor up to 8600 rpm and that required reringing the motor every year. I only rev the A15 to 8000rpm.  If you run a motor 80% of an all out race engine it will go forever. 

I was running a close ratio gearbox but those are fragile, so I've gone to a larger 5 speed. Initially I whined about the ratios of the street box but as it turns out the ratios are such that I only use 3rd and 4th plus I make fewer shifts. 

The rear axle is an H190 (190mm ring gear) where as most run a H150 or H165. 

The brakes on my car are 280ZX and the rears are 240Z. In the 26 years since I've installed the ZX brakes I've never worn out a set of pads. I just change them because I figure they get harder with age (no idea if that is actually true). The rear shoes take about 5 seasons to wear out. My car with me in it is 1786lbs (I'm 140lbs) so having brakes from a 3000lb car is definitely overkill.

The front suspension is 280ZX as well so the massive wheel bearings relative to the stock ones mean I only have to change out bearings something like every 10 years (I've raced the car for nearly 30). I use Koni dampers and they are long lived.

If I get put in the small bore group I usually finish 5th out of 25-30 cars. Lately they have been sticking me in with the B-Sedans, in that group I'm running 8th to 10th out of 15-20 cars. I'm a better than average driver so I'm able to finish a couple of spots higher than an average driver would. 

In B-sedan the leaders are 9 seconds faster than me on a 3.4 mile course. There are 3 or 4 cars that are 3 to 5 seconds faster than me. I'm going to spend around $750-$1000 that will put me up with them. After those cars the next closet cars are 7 seconds a lap faster, catching up to them means spending $3000 more as well as having to refresh the motor every 10 events, which is a bridge to far for me.

I know I'm driving well, I'm having some great dices with people and so spending $5000 or $10,000 more because it makes me ego feel better isn't worth it for me. This is supposed to be fun and I find it fun battling my way past faster cars. 

So short story long if you overbuild the drivetrain and brakes and keep the revs down the car shouldn't be fussy at all. Also a good driver can drag a car a couple of places forward at vintage races. 

OK part II specific to if I were going to run a TR6

 I'd clean up the ports on the head, fit larger valves if possible for reasonable $$, add a hot street cam, weber DCOE carbs or if it didn't totally screw up my classing a pair of Mikuni flat slides) and electronic ignition. 

If a close ratio gear set can be had for less than $1000 add or, again if it didn't totally screw up my classing, a Toyota gearbox.

A decent set of dampers.

Repalce any known weaknesses (the British car aftermarket is great for having solutions for these) 

Finally a limited slip diff, I will always spend the money on these no matter how much it stings the wallet because welded diffs suck (no strong opinion there) and they compromise your set up.

Tom1200 said:

OK part II specific to if I were going to run a TR6

 I'd clean up the ports on the head, fit larger valves if possible for reasonable $$, add a hot street cam, weber DCOE carbs or if it didn't totally screw up my classing a pair of Mikuni flat slides) and electronic ignition. 

If a close ratio gear set can be had for less than $1000 add or, again if it didn't totally screw up my classing, a Toyota gearbox.

A decent set of dampers.

Repalce any known weaknesses (the British car aftermarket is great for having solutions for these) 

Finally a limited slip diff, I will always spend the money on these no matter how much it stings the wallet because welded diffs suck (no strong opinion there) and they compromise your set up.

 

I’m not sure Weber’s would be a smart move.  On a Jaguar XKE Weber’s are only worth 15 horsepower over the 2inch SU’s they originally come with.  That’s 15 horsepower if you get the jetting correct.   

i think the TR6 has 2 strombergs 1&3/4 but I’ve seen 3 SU’s on them  The ease you can adjust SU’s compared to Weber’s would make it a no brainer except for the eye candy of Weber’s.  But to get only  7-8 horsepower more  and have spend the extra thousand dollars?  

Camshafts, “ hot street”  what does that mean? How much lift, what duration? Percentage of exhaust port flow to intake. 

  Today you find out what sort of flow you have through the ports.  Use a flow bench to know that at .500 lift the intake flows 165 cfm Or whatever. Then based on that and other information you can determine how much power you make with a cam designed for those specs  Piper, Kent, Isky, Crower, heck a lot of small backyard guys can grind a cam or regrind your cam to really work for you. 

Modern computers have engine analyzer programs and have it down to an afternoons work exactly what will get you the best bang for your money.  Answer dozens of questions you didn’t know to ask. 

The effort of turning your TR6 into a vintage race car should be similar to what you went through setting up your MB190e...  cage, suspension, brakes, safety gear etc.  Building a race engine can be put off until you have the other components sorted out.

Over-building the car as Tom1200 suggests is a good approach, and how we have our MGB set up.   We run 3 or 4 events a year and unless we break something we try to do very little maintenance at the track (doesn't always go according to plan, lol)   Engines are tuned to last at least 3 seasons before needing a refresh, which we have done by a professional builder. Tires, brakes etc renewed each season.

Cheers

Gordon

Frenchyd I remember seeing kits of Mikuni bike cars to replace the stock carbs but I suspect  these would be a no no. If you can get close with a pair of carbs and not have to buy DCOE carbs I'm on board for saving the money. 

As for hot street cam; not knowing what is normal for a TR6 race cam I'll use my Datsun engine as an example. The most radical race cam is 300-310 degrees (advertised) duration and .460 - .480 valve lift with 104 degree lobe centers. I run a 278 degree duration with .420 valve lift..........that's my version of a hot street cam. It's happiest above 4K, makes most of it's power above 6000 out to 8200 but it will actually idle and trundle around the pits with no effort. 

It's not just my being cheap that causes me to tune the motor more mildly; when the powerband is narrowed up it makes having an ultra close ratio gearbox more and more of an issue. In my case getting a strong close ratio box is a $3000 to $4000 proposition. 

ggarrad a professional engine builder is hard to argue with if it's in the budget. I don't know about MG engines but with Datsun engines that initial build can be as much as $9,000 to $10,000 and refreshes running between 4-6K. I've got just under 9K in the car, after 30 years, so it doesn't seem to make sense for me. I paid $700 for my spare cylinder head, it came complete with springs and valves and was professionally ported. I do pay for a professional to do the valve jobs but he is a friend so I get a deal. So there are ways to cut costs.

As mentioned above by ggarrad, my goal on a race weekend is to have to fill up the fuel cell and check tire pressures. If it actually rains (I live in the mojave desert) the only thing I do is disconnect the sway bars. The whole goal with the 1200 was to make it relaxing. When I raced the little 125GP bike we'd be making gearing changes 10 minutes before the race if the wind changed, that intensity level is not relaxing.

It definitely depends on how competitive you want to be. I've read about guys racing Volvo 1800's in vintage with essentially bone-stock B20's.  Especially when they're just starting out.  I'd likely do the same or similar, although I'd probably freshen up a Triumph engine for the high RPM abuse as those generally weren't as well built (balancing? what's that?) from the factory as a Volvo engine.

From what I've seen over the years, so much of vintage racing is driver dependent more so than the car.  A lot of drivers are happy to more or less putter around the track at speed and don't care about winning. Keep it out of the barriers and get home in one piece. Especially if they've chosen a car they like but isn't necessarily the best for the class.  Some drivers will be faster in a less prepped car simply because they're willing to take more risks. 

Tom1200 said:

Frenchyd I remember seeing kits of Mikuni bike cars to replace the stock carbs but I suspect  these would be a no no. If you can get close with a pair of carbs and not have to buy DCOE carbs I'm on board for saving the money. 

As for hot street cam; not knowing what is normal for a TR6 race cam I'll use my Datsun engine as an example. The most radical race cam is 300-310 degrees (advertised) duration and .460 - .480 valve lift with 104 degree lobe centers. I run a 278 degree duration with .420 valve lift..........that's my version of a hot street cam. It's happiest above 4K, makes most of it's power above 6000 out to 8200 but it will actually idle and trundle around the pits with no effort. 

It's not just my being cheap that causes me to tune the motor more mildly; when the powerband is narrowed up it makes having an ultra close ratio gearbox more and more of an issue. In my case getting a strong close ratio box is a $3000 to $4000 proposition. 

ggarrad a professional engine builder is hard to argue with if it's in the budget. I don't know about MG engines but with Datsun engines that initial build can be as much as $9,000 to $10,000 and refreshes running between 4-6K. I've got just under 9K in the car, after 30 years, so it doesn't seem to make sense for me. I paid $700 for my spare cylinder head, it came complete with springs and valves and was professionally ported. I do pay for a professional to do the valve jobs but he is a friend so I get a deal. So there are ways to cut costs.

As mentioned above by ggarrad, my goal on a race weekend is to have to fill up the fuel cell and check tire pressures. If it actually rains (I live in the mojave desert) the only thing I do is disconnect the sway bars. The whole goal with the 1200 was to make it relaxing. When I raced the little 125GP bike we'd be making gearing changes 10 minutes before the race if the wind changed, that intensity level is not relaxing.

You are right, but in order to use that high lift long duration camshaft effectively so that it actually makes the car faster rather than slow it down.  So much more has to be done.  

I learned those lessons the hard way.  Back in the early 1970’s I raced in DP with a Jag XK 150.  I ported the head. Polished it to a high shine. Put the biggest camshaft and 12-1 compression pistons.  Etc etc etc 

Then showed up at the track and promptly got beat by a stone stock Engine fresh out of a junkyard.  It wasn’t driving,  I could actually out corner him but while I was waiting for the engine to come on cam he’d go trucking by.  Then when on the cam and really starting to pull I’d have to lift for the next corner. 

His bottom end power allowed him to get by me out of the corner and only on the real long straights did I have enough to get past him.  There tends to be only one long straight  but a whole lot of corners ina road race track.

 Plus screaming a long stroke Engine to 1000rpm past the factory red line made the engine quickly go bang, chunka, chunka puke! . Oil flag!   

Later when racing that same type engine I bought a  computer program called Engine Analyzer and based on that I made parts choices.  As a result I made a cheap engine last for decades and perform at the top of it’s  potential.  

Less really is more especially when racing on a modest budget! 

Ian F said:

It definitely depends on how competitive you want to be. I've read about guys racing Volvo 1800's in vintage with essentially bone-stock B20's.  Especially when they're just starting out.  I'd likely do the same or similar, although I'd probably freshen up a Triumph engine for the high RPM abuse as those generally weren't as well built (balancing? what's that?) from the factory as a Volvo engine.

From what I've seen over the years, so much of vintage racing is driver dependent more so than the car.  A lot of drivers are happy to more or less putter around the track at speed and don't care about winning. Keep it out of the barriers and get home in one piece. Especially if they've chosen a car they like but isn't necessarily the best for the class.  Some drivers will be faster in a less prepped car simply because they're willing to take more risks. 

We aren’t puttering, while it might seem that way compared to those who flog the snot out their cars what we are doing is racing strategically, using what we have wisely keeping in mind you don’t win the race on the first lap. 

When I raced Sir Sterling Moss and Steve Kline in the Bahama’s there is  a brief video of me tossing the Jag into a corner setting them both up for a pass on the back straight. 

I didn’t know an earlier car had dusted the corner with sand from an earlier off! I went charging in a solid 15 mph faster than either had gone and knew that once past they couldn’t repass me. Sand acted like little ball bearings and suddenly I was extremely busy. I should have just accepted the inevitable crash that was going to happen but I’m stubborn.  While I used the whole corner and all of the shoulder the dance ended with me still pointing the right direction and moving fast enough that it was time to shift.   But all that dancing put me solidly behind them.  

Yep in that race I finished Third!  But when the week was over my tiny budget car was on the podium in second place, and I loaded the car in the trailer in the same shape as I unloaded it.  

Tom1200 said:

Frenchyd I remember seeing kits of Mikuni bike cars to replace the stock carbs but I suspect  these would be a no no. If you can get close with a pair of carbs and not have to buy DCOE carbs I'm on board for saving the money. 

As for hot street cam; not knowing what is normal for a TR6 race cam I'll use my Datsun engine as an example. The most radical race cam is 300-310 degrees (advertised) duration and .460 - .480 valve lift with 104 degree lobe centers. I run a 278 degree duration with .420 valve lift..........that's my version of a hot street cam. It's happiest above 4K, makes most of it's power above 6000 out to 8200 but it will actually idle and trundle around the pits with no effort. 

It's not just my being cheap that causes me to tune the motor more mildly; when the powerband is narrowed up it makes having an ultra close ratio gearbox more and more of an issue. In my case getting a strong close ratio box is a $3000 to $4000 proposition. 

ggarrad a professional engine builder is hard to argue with if it's in the budget. I don't know about MG engines but with Datsun engines that initial build can be as much as $9,000 to $10,000 and refreshes running between 4-6K. I've got just under 9K in the car, after 30 years, so it doesn't seem to make sense for me. I paid $700 for my spare cylinder head, it came complete with springs and valves and was professionally ported. I do pay for a professional to do the valve jobs but he is a friend so I get a deal. So there are ways to cut costs.

As mentioned above by ggarrad, my goal on a race weekend is to have to fill up the fuel cell and check tire pressures. If it actually rains (I live in the mojave desert) the only thing I do is disconnect the sway bars. The whole goal with the 1200 was to make it relaxing. When I raced the little 125GP bike we'd be making gearing changes 10 minutes before the race if the wind changed, that intensity level is not relaxing.

The same with Weber’s, if you’re going to keep that 7-8 horsepower advantage you’ll keep an eye on the sky and one eye on the air density meter. Then depending on how fast you can change jets, air meters  and even Venturi’s  making those changes.  

Meanwhile the SU guys will a minute before starting give the mixture one or two flats on each carb. No tools required. 

But yes those Weber’s are sure pretty eye candy.  

Mechanical fuel injection is even easier! A dial on the dash! Go by the pits and your crew chief will  point a thumb up or down and then one to 6 fingers depending on what the air density is doing.   Position 7 is for the cool off lap and position 1 for starting.