"Let Us Leave Restorations to Men of No Imagination"

Marcel Proust will have to forgive me for messing with his quote.

Apropos of nothing and under the general heading of "Since Men can't make babies, we build cars", I postulate that factory original restorations are for people who have little imagination and lack security when not in a herd. People of vision need to create unique personality reflective creations and damn what the peanut gallery says.

In my mind, the world has plenty of antiseptic museum quality specimens of any vehicle ever built, what we need more of is modern interpretations based on the classic designs.

I'll be over in my bunker if you need me

So, separating the issue of vision, since it is most certainly required by both camps, would anyone consider the act of restoring a car to be "Creative"

It could be creative if you have to create some parts that are no longer available.

T.J. wrote: It could be creative if you have to create some parts that are no longer available.

I see that more as "Skilled" if you are going to make a faithful reproduction. But you are of course right in that creativity might be required to fabricate the part.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put down anyone who does proper restorations, just saying it's one breed compared to another. Flock animals versus solitary predators if you will not take offense at that.

it's fine if you want to create something that's unique and special to you …. but keep in mind that it's not going to be worth anywhere near as much …assuming you're ever interested in selling … but don't let that stop you on your quest for the unique

NOHOME wrote: Marcel Proust will have to forgive me for messing with his quote. Apropos of nothing and under the general heading of "Since Men can't make babies, we build cars", I postulate that factory original restorations are for people who have little imagination and lack security when not in a herd. People of vision need to create unique personality reflective creations and damn what the peanut gallery says. In my mind, the world has plenty of antiseptic museum quality specimens of any vehicle ever built, what we need more of is modern interpretations based on the classic designs. I'll be over in my bunker if you need me So, separating the issue of vision, since it is most certainly required by both camps, would anyone consider the act of restoring a car to be "Creative"

I've done both.... sold the resto, kept the unique creation... that makes me good???

it depends on the restoration.... Some things require custom made parts using skills and techniques often forgotten... but in a simplified kinda way... like restoring a muscle, or pony car....???

I did the resto thing back in the 90s... picked up a 70 428 Super Cobra Jet Mach 1, did the whole resto thing... then drove it 1000 miles(round trip) to the 30th anniversary @ Charlotte. Then sold it... the whole project from acquisition to sale took a little over 3 years....

Then there is Surreptitious

wbjones wrote: it's fine if you want to create something that's unique and special to you …. but keep in mind that it's not going to be worth anywhere near as much …assuming you're ever interested in selling … but don't let that stop you on your quest for the unique

TRUTH!

Wouldn't the truly creative be building their own self-designed contraptions from scratch?

I wouldn't call restoration "creative" in itself, but recognize the creativity in finding a new way to repair/rebuild/recreate a particular part that has gone NLA, or to perform a procedure for which the equipmnent is not available.

NOHOME wrote: Flock animals ...

What of the restorer working with a vehicle of which there aren't any "flocks"? One of my after-winning-the-big-lottery projects would be restoring a Wichita Falls truck. If you know of a flock of those, please let me know!

NOHOME wrote: ... versus solitary predators ...

Are those customizers more "solitary predators" or "carrion eaters"?
I see customized Porsches and LBC's fairly often, and they do seem to run in packs, if not flocks.

I'm somewhere in the middle, with a 50-year old American four-door family sedan. I upgrade a few things for safety and mild performance improvements, but try to maintain the character of the car. Keep it on the road, and keep up with traffic, you know? I don't claim much creativity, but I've had to engineer a couple of situations to adapt parts and such. I'm in awe of some of the restorers - and some of the customizers. There are some fine craftsmen doing both.

One more thing, referring to the thread title: It takes a LOT of imagination to look at some of the piles of rust out there and see the beautiful machines they once were.

Often it's the folks with the skill and creativity to restore or recreate the rare and exotic that also have the experience and skill to make something truly original - lookin at you jumper k balls aka ditchdigger

When it comes to newer cars, like E30's, those of us doing a proper restoration are far fewer than those bolting on aftermarket parts. Sometimes keeping a car original is the creative idea, rather than following the throng of people online convincing you to install xx part because they did and it's good.

The "system" tends to reward factory original restorations. They are more valuable in the market, the car clubs' activities and peer pressures push for originality, even non-enthusiast audiences prefer them "why did you destroy that beautiful/historic automobile?"

Exceptions are hot rods-- there is a place for creativity, though there are also boundaries. I love rat rods for their creativity, ugly as they typically are.

In my case, I see restoration as the basis for gaining the skills and tools to do more interesting things. Color by number if you will.

I get what you're saying NOHOME, but from coming from a restoration background, especially in brass era cars, I think there is a lot of creativity, especially when you make something for the car that is one off or make a brand new part. Yeah being skilled is part of that, but sometimes skills hit a wall, then you have to be creative to get over that wall.

I wouldn't knock factory restorations. In my opinion, I think factory resto jobs are far and few in between, mainly because a lot of people do some modernizing or something like a new radio head unit. When you say factory restoration, I think of those guys who take it to the next level and make sure they have the markings in the same spot that the people in the factory left. I think, in all honesty, there are more mildly customized cars than factory restorations, depending on the car of course. Like in the Corvair world, there are far more stock restorations than customs. But say in 60's Camaros,I am pretty sure there are more Customs than stock restorations.

That being said, I am glad my Corvair is already custom. I like Corvairs the way they are factory, but this car I wouldn't feel bad about customizing it some more, which I plan to do.

I love when people do something kind of subtle, but it's really kind of outrageous. Like this '69 Dodge Charger. It's supposed to be American Muscle mixed with European Flare.

Basil Exposition wrote: Exceptions are hot rods-- there is a place for creativity, though there are also boundaries. I love rat rods for their creativity, ugly as they typically are.

They have the Hot Rod Nationals here every year. I've gone a couple of times when friends have something entered. But even then it's hard to hold my interest for over a hour. I mean how many 32 Dueces with A/C, slushbox, and a modern crate motor with 25 pounds of chrome on it do I need to see in my lifetime?

They even have custom builders that will make any kind of Rat Rod, Street Rod, Low Rider, Bouncer, or anything else you can think of. Want steel, sign here, want glass, sign here. Want a sbc or prefer a sbf, sign here. Want frenched lights, got them too. Creativity? Maybe ten or twenty of the thousands on the lot at any given show are noticeably creative.

But you do currently see the battles going on. The "original" or "real" hot rod people. Are really up in arms about those "newer" cars now eligible after the powers that be decided they needed more business and bigger crowds. How "original" or "real" is a duece built literally from scratch, to order, and delivered to the first owner just in time to drive to the show? Isn't that a newer car than say a '57 Bel Air which previously wasn't allowed?

Basil Exposition wrote: The "system" tends to reward factory original restorations. They are more valuable in the market, the car clubs' activities and peer pressures push for originality, even non-enthusiast audiences prefer them "why did you destroy that beautiful/historic automobile?" Exceptions are hot rods-- there is a place for creativity, though there are also boundaries. I love rat rods for their creativity, ugly as they typically are.

What you are calling the "system", I call the "flock". Please no-one read anything derogatory into the word because none was meant.

Leaving the safety of the "financial return" is in my mind essential to the creative process. Kinda like racing, you have to be prepared to toss the mess in the trash if it does not work and move on to the next project.

I appreciate where you are coming from. As an example I'd rather have a resto mod '69 Mustang than a faithfully restored one. But the caveat for me is that there are a million failed attempts at "being creative" where a stock version is well as it should be and as long it is done with good quality craftsmanship it doesn't fail.

With the cars I work on, there is usually no choice but restoration.

Unless you're comfortable with pissing your half-million plus investment down the drain.

I'll do just about anything a customer wants, it just costs money.

P.S. The wheels on that charger look stupid.

P.P.S. Wheels bigger than 16" on cars built from the '30s to the '80s look stupid, unless driving a cartoon is the look you're going for.

One of the things that I like about old cars is the story they tell. A survivor classic tells a story of its own history in every scratch, dint and tear. A resto-mod is the story of its creators vison.

I realize that I may be in a minority, but to me "Provenance" ends when a car undergoes a full restoration. A perfectly restored car has no story; its been scrubbed clean, and with no farts yet fired through the upholstery and has to start over again.

I personally see room for both and it's a personal opinion. I'm of the mindset of modify for use. If the use is show then bone stock is the way to go. If to drive, then open to owner's interpretation. Many older cars can benefit from technology not available when they were built. Original muscle cars don't handle well, the technology is now there to remedy that. Many were hp limited, again technology can remedy that.

I've restored a few cars. I have way more fun drilling holes and 'butchering' a car to make it something beyond what the factory intended. Now, I only do this to cars most people won't care about, ever. 4 doors. Cars they made in the millions. If it's the least bit collectible I take pains to make it easy to return to stock later. But painting outside the lines is simply more fun, for me anyway.

Trans_Maro wrote: P.S. The wheels on that charger look stupid. P.P.S. Wheels bigger than 16" on cars built from the '30s to the '80s look stupid, unless driving a cartoon is the look you're going for.

I agree! I believe the same rule applies to econo-boxes and most middle of the road kid haulers. A FWD Impala with 22" wheels??!! And some of the bolt on spoilers make cars look even more like a cartoon ride. Or a Tonka Toy.

I like my 72 Firebird with 17s and it doesn't look cartoonish. I also like my all original 78 T/A with 15s. What I love the most is my taste in cars is very diverse, so I get to experience it all without being cranky and/or snobbish about things.

I think I've modified every car I've ever laid a wrench on with the exception of my old Lambo, which didn't really need customizing.

I usually do it in a subtle way, with driveline and suspension mods intended to maximize performance while leaving it look stock - I've never been a huge mags and flared fender kind of guy.

One of the most fun restorations I've done, though, was my Jamaican, where I wasn't worried about what was stock as it came premodified to me and I tossed out and replaced everything except the body and rear axle housing.

Fun not to be limited by a stock specification, so I understand the modifying urge.

Rupert wrote:

Trans_Maro wrote: P.S. The wheels on that charger look stupid. P.P.S. Wheels bigger than 16" on cars built from the '30s to the '80s look stupid, unless driving a cartoon is the look you're going for.

I agree! I believe the same rule applies to econo-boxes and most middle of the road kid haulers. A FWD Impala with 22" wheels??!! And some of the bolt on spoilers make cars look even more like a cartoon ride. Or a Tonka Toy.

Hum... those original 19" wheels on that Ford Model A would disagree:

Or the 19" wheels on this Plymouth

Or.....

Could keep on going for pages.

Also, I am all for creativity. Put as others have said, even in "creative" circles, there is usually a flock mentality. It's very hard to be truly original.

Keyword here "original." That doesn't mean I'm a slave to original by any means. But I prefer to keep my mods within the feel of the original design. Or leave the original design altogether. That Model A would look silly with 22" alloys or modern 14" dishes as well.

It would also be strange to put a Corvair motor where the rumble seat sits. But there probably is at least one done that way.

In reply to Cotton:I don't think we're talking the same thing here. 17s on a Firebird are a huge lot different from the 20s or more that picture seems to show. Yes I know the quote was over 16". But I didn't take it that he meant exactly 16" literally. I took it as he said don't put donuts where they look weird.

BTW: One of the neat things about a forum like this is, we have differences in opinions and can express them. I've not felt doing so was being snobbish.

In reply to fanfoy:

You know what I meant but you chose to pick the low-hanging fruit anyway...