Motor Swaps

This has probably been done before.... but it is a slow night and I couldn't help stir up some controversy!

I don't mind swaps between the same brand like putting 350 into a Chevy Nova, you know just upgrading a Chevy with a bigger Chevy motor, or say putting a E30 M3 motor into a 2002 or a DOHC Nissan2 litre into a 510, (don't know their motor designations).

But to me "FOR THE MOST PART" putting say an S2000 or Miata motor into an MGB just seems wrong. Now I do understand that they are an upgrade but it just seems like putting the heart of a Cheetah into the body of a Lynx. I would understand a Buick/Rover V8 but not a Japanese motor. Nothing against Japanese motors like I don't like to see a SBC in a Z car either. I'd rather see a hoped up Datsun 6 or even a Skyline motor.

Now don't ask me why I have these weird preconceived notions. I just do. If you want a faster MGB there are ways or just get a Miata. I just feel like you've taken the essence of the car and thrown away 1/2 of it, which means you've bought the wrong car. Now I will admit there are exceptions where the swap is just done SO well and the rest of the car, chassis, brakes, suspension, and workmanship is incredible that I say, "ok", they did it right.....but I still think, though it may be the supermodel of Frankenstein, it is still Frankenstein.

Now go yell at me....

The reason so many people are getting away from the Rover V8 is cost. Sure you can get the engine cheap, but all of the other parts you need to install one are going to set you back at least a couple of grand and they are not that easy to find. Build a Rover V8 to the hilt and your still looking at less than 300 HP in a 4.6L and that build will cost more than a crate LS2. I know of at least a dozen 5.0 stroker Rovers putting down around 300 HP at the wheels, and not one of those engine builds cost less than $8K. Most were over $10K. Pretty much all the new MGB swaps are the 3.4L V6 from Chevy. You can pick up a complete Camaro with a running V6/5 speed for less than just putting a transmission behind a Rover V8. The car I'm building now is getting a Chevy LS engine of some sort or another, because its cheaper to get 500HP and a 6 speed out of the LS than it is to get 300HP and 5 speed out of the Rover..... and thats with approximately 25 years of gathering Rover parts and a garage full of Rover engines. I've seen more Ford 302 and Lexus V8s swaps lately than Rover swaps. The Rover is a great light weight engine, but it just can't keep up with the modern stuff.

There was a time when some of us who drove what are now considered collector cars, used them as daily transportation. My first Sunbeam Alpine (a '60 Series I) purchased back in '75 was a daily driver. And it was woefully underpowered compared to pretty much everything else on the road. Back then, we dreamed of improving the performance of our LBCs and there wasn't a lot of thought given to the purity of the marque or what it might be worth in 30 or 40 years. Accordingly, my second Alpine purchased in '85 quickly received a Ford 2.8L V6. Drove that car as a daily driver for about 8 years before it was retired for use as a fun vehicle. And so the groundwork was laid in my early days of car ownership that I would (almost) always want to improve on what the factory created. Of course, we all know now that this is not an easy thing to do. Nevertheless, whenever I obtain a "new" old car, I'm subconsciously thinking about the ultimate engine swap. That's not to say I don't wish I still had some of my early cars with their original powerplants, given what they would be worth today. It's just that it's like an addiction where I can't help but dream about some wild swap that in reality I could never successfully do. As I'm sure others will say, it's your car, do with it as you please if it trips your trigger.

Hot Rods Rule! I love me a good engine or drivetrain swap. But I tend to want to mate classic to classic out of some respect to the past and the future of the vehicle.

I am currently putting a 302 in a Volvo P1800ES. I like the mix because the two were contemporaries way back in 1973 and I expect that ford 302 parts will be available for the next 100 years. This way the car has a future. On the other hand, the LFX V6 that would have been a better engine had no history and no future. I doubt that the LFX will ever be a classic engine and hence did not fit the bill. I skipped over the LSx series for pretty much the same reasons; too new and rapidly evolving and obsoleting itself.

MGB's in particular are begging for engine swaps. There is really nothing complimentary that one can say about a B series engine other than it was cheap to make and allowed the car to sell to a low performance and low budget clientele. The 3.4 GM swaps are amazing value and offer a well traveled path for the owner with average mechanical skills.

Final thing to keep in mind is that swaps are hard to do and for the most part expensive. Most people underestimate the time, difficulty and money it takes to do one the first time. But for those that pull it off, there is usually a second time

Unfortunately, for a great many swaps, it ends up like granny getting a boob job.

In reply to maseratiguy: It depends too on the combination.

Heck Shelby made a life out of swapping a Ford engine into a cross leaf sprung AC. A Cad Allard is not only proper but desired.. Me personally? I want to do a MG T series and Jaguar swap..

No obviously I wouldn't ruin a whole or almost complete T series that way. But I have enough sheet metal as spares plus all these Jag pieces around so why not? Yes to do it right means I will have to build yet another chassis but to keep from being bored I think I'll do it out of aluminum (once everything is finished I'll of course polish it to a high shine)

I mean the Jag suspension is the same width as the T series.. The engine compartment in a T series is long enough so an Aluminum V12 will look proper. (obviously polish the V12 up as well ) Clearly it will need wire wheels but why not 19 inch wires? With a low enough stance we have a TC on steroids...

In reply to maseratiguy:

LMAOYou're worrying about ruining a MGB by installing a different 4! At least it's still an inline 4!! I'm more concerned about ruining a lot of excellent cars which came with very good inline 4's, 6's, 8's, etc. by stuffing yet another V motor into them. And no, it doesn't seem to matter the brand or continent of origin of the motor or the car, as long as you can cut away enough metal and cram that V engine into them!!

Bottom line is, you either have a car, stock or modified along similar to original design intent, or you have a hot rod! Once you go the hot rod route you might as well buy the plastic body parts, hydraulic lowering kits, the slushbox with a 8 ball or skeleton gear shift lever ornament, Stewart instruments, fuzzy dice, wagging head dog, a car hop tray for the left window, a ground mirror to show a lot of the newly chromed suspension parts, & don't forget the Crager Mags!! All those will get you extra points at hot rod events!

Rather than destroy your car by turning it into yet another of the hundreds of thousands of hot rods, sell or give your car away to someone who cares about it and buy a kit car body and chassis to build your hot rod from!! Kit Car hot rods are much better suited to your intent & much safer and cheaper for what you're doing anyway. Once you leave the basics of how the car was designed, they're all kit cars and hot rods anyway!

MGBs with stock motors are nice cars (Federalized rubber bumper models excepted). MGBs with tuned B series engines are nice cars. MGBs with other engines swapped into them can be nice cars.

I run one MG with a stock engine one with a 175 bhp race engine and one with e 200 bhp 3.4 V6. I enjoy them all. Oh yeah, and one street MG with modded straight 6 factory engine - almost forgot that one (also ~ 175 bhp)

In reply to Rupert: You and I see things with a different lens. They are starting to put Vintage hotrods on the lawn at Pebble Beach. Once you really look at them and understand them you will see why.. Some brilliant engineering as well as a focus on purpose not found on every old European car. Along with fantastic attention to detail and superb craftsmanship..

Not all sports cars are examples of excellent taste or proper selection of accessories either.. I know of a orange metal-flake XK-E with leopard skin interior. More than a few car's with air-horns capable of playing La Cucaracha and just plain awful junk hung on, attached, or otherwise ruining the purity of the breed.

There can be brilliance and finesse in any car. However no car/owner is exempt from tasteless errors either..

In reply to impster: My "improvement" of the first Sunbeam I owned consisted of swapping in the later series IV engine and trans into the series 1 (1960) Sunbeam then promptly building it to near full race specs.. More than one Sunbeam Tiger was fooled by me with that car..

Ok, Cobra's, Allards etc don't really qualify, they are quasi factory cars, not just another car with a swapped motor. Rupert you can laugh your ass off all you want but a Miata motor in an MGB though may be nice just doesn't seem like an MGB to me anymore, same with stuffing a GM V6. It may very well be a better car, but to me it has lost some of it's MGBness. To me American cars seem a different ball game, A Camaro with an inline 6 going to a 350 or a 350 going to a 396 or whatever doesn't bother me or change the heart of the car. HOWEVER, more of the original intent of my post, (though I may not be expressing it well) is when I see something like a TR6 with some non Triumph monster motor in it. Or any car which was once a fair performer but now has a mega horsepower motor installed yet the axle, brakes, suspension etc. are not done to the same spec. Now "Nohome" putting a 302 into an 1800 may have a good idea that I can accept, (not that anything depends on me of course) but at least A). Volvo and Ford have some history. B). a Volvo's unibody, axles etc. may be able to handle the power of a 302, where say a Triumph Spitfire's could not, and C). The brakes on an 1800 are better than whatever Ford was using in the late 60's early 70's. Then throwing in upgrades of those systems to equal the upgrades of power you can do with a 302,...Ok. but that engine bay seems a little tight to me when it comes time to change plugs etc. ....Love to see pics when it is done.

In reply to maseratiguy: Regarding a Triumph with a V8 swap, An inline six cylinder anything is a surprisingly wide engine..

Here is my thing: if you find some old Ferrari 250GTO but alas the engine is in pieces, so you and yer friend stick that motor out of your old Chevy truck in it, I won't shriek in horror, provided you don't cut the fire wall or butcher the rest of it. (This is a lie of course but for debate purposes I'm going with the most absurd example possible)

Crossmembers, wiring and motor mounts are easily fabricated. It's when you start cutting holes in the hood so the blower fits that's when it gets dicey. Look at all those old Fords with Chevy 350s, the answer is always I can get way more power for half the price with the Chevy. Naturally the chassis isn't up to the task of more power but car poeple are not well connected to reality.

On my Datsun 1200 I started running Hoosier Vintage TDs because they fit under the rear fenders. When I put the big block (1500cc vs 1171 original) in car it neccesitated a stronger rear end, so I put in an H190 out of a Roadster which is 3 inches wider than stock. The front control arms (entire front suspension is 280ZX) were widened to match the rear track. The front crossmember is modified so the ZX control arms fit. I also have another crossmember that is set up for the larger motor which has the motor mounts in a slightly different position. I also have a stock crossmember. Should the collector car world suddenly ingest peyote and stock 1200s start bringing 356 or early 911 money I can with not to much effort return it back to original.

Which brings us back to the aforementioned TR6; an early 5.0 Ford V8 & T5 tranny is actually lighter than the Triumph motor and tranny. Add some decent dampers and sway bars plus a brake upgrade and you get a 225 hp car that will run on cheap gas and need little beyond oil changes. It's easy to see why people do it. If you do not carve up the car and the conversion is well done then I'm ok with it. Personally I prefer the straight six as I like the sound better. I have never been a fan of American V8s, great motors but I've never thought they sound great. Of course I think two stroke twin GP bikes sound fantastic.

Now after saying all that the main reason I'm not one for motor conversions is everyone seems to do the same thing like lemmings charging over the verge. If your going to put a V8 in your E-Type at least put a DFV in there.

Tom

Well, I'll agree to the DFV swap into almost anything.

Should I ever actually buy a Lotto ticket and should it actually be a winning ticket I can see a DFV migrating into the Datsun.

I actually want to put a BDA in the 1200 but they tend to cost as much as the car.

A neighbor of mine bought a tube frame corvette drag car and then put all of the running gear from his old Mustang drag car in it just to aggravate his friends who built Chevy powered T Buckets.

Tom

In reply to Tom1200: Your exception to V8's is noted, is it possible that the result while perhaps neatly done, sounds terrible?

V8's have a bad conflict in their firing order.. adjacent cylinders may be 90, 180 or even 270 degrees part that effectively causes a stumble in the exhaust note.. (OK a flat plane crank with 180 degree headers doesn't suffer)

In reply to maseratiguy: A Miata in a MG? MG's engines never have been their strong suit.. They tended to be hot rodded older British engines. Nobody I know has over 20,000 miles on a T series MG with the original XPAG engine in it.. Those that even approach that figure know a rebuild is in the near future.

MGA even built a handful of double overhead camshaft engines so a Miata in an MGA isn't all that horrible..

Tom1200 wrote: Here is my thing: if you find some old Ferrari 250GTO but alas the engine is in pieces, so you and yer friend stick that motor out of your old Chevy truck in it, I won't shriek in horror, provided you don't cut the fire wall or butcher the rest of it. (This is a lie of course but for debate purposes I'm going with the most absurd example possible) Crossmembers, wiring and motor mounts are easily fabricated. It's when you start cutting holes in the hood so the blower fits that's when it gets dicey. Look at all those old Fords with Chevy 350s, the answer is always I can get way more power for half the price with the Chevy. Naturally the chassis isn't up to the task of more power but car poeple are not well connected to reality. On my Datsun 1200 I started running Hoosier Vintage TDs because they fit under the rear fenders. When I put the big block (1500cc vs 1171 original) in car it neccesitated a stronger rear end, so I put in an H190 out of a Roadster which is 3 inches wider than stock. The front control arms (entire front suspension is 280ZX) were widened to match the rear track. The front crossmember is modified so the ZX control arms fit. I also have another crossmember that is set up for the larger motor which has the motor mounts in a slightly different position. I also have a stock crossmember. Should the collector car world suddenly ingest peyote and stock 1200s start bringing 356 or early 911 money I can with not to much effort return it back to original. Which brings us back to the aforementioned TR6; an early 5.0 Ford V8 & T5 tranny is actually lighter than the Triumph motor and tranny. Add some decent dampers and sway bars plus a brake upgrade and you get a 225 hp car that will run on cheap gas and need little beyond oil changes. It's easy to see why people do it. If you do not carve up the car and the conversion is well done then I'm ok with it. Personally I prefer the straight six as I like the sound better. I have never been a fan of American V8s, great motors but I've never thought they sound great. Of course I think two stroke twin GP bikes sound fantastic. Now after saying all that the main reason I'm not one for motor conversions is everyone seems to do the same thing like lemmings charging over the verge. If your going to put a V8 in your E-Type at least put a DFV in there. Tom

A DFV is how big? something around 3 litres? Yes, it has a lot of power, but it's all at insanely high RPM. While either the old Six in the early XK-E or the V12 in the series 3 has a lot of torque.
I'm not sure the heads on a DFV would fit between the frame rails of an XK-E even the series 3. 90 degree double overhead cams verses an in line six or a 60 degree single overhead cam

First, yes much like Harley V-Twin there is a buzz bomb note to American V8s I find unappealing.

Yes a DFV is a high RPM motor; it will likely do nothing below 5000 RPM and won't start making power to around 7K or more. Different cams and a seriously low rear gear will help. As you'd need a transmission for a rear drive car, a 6 speed close ratio affair will be needed. If some crazy person actually did this it would likely be a track day only car.

So back to reality; with Japanese classics it's very common and accepted to swap the original for something more modern. For example Australian and New Zealand 1200s are commonly powered by 1800cc twin cam turbo motors belting out between 250 to 350 horsepower to the rear wheels. There is an infamous in car video of a 1200 bombing down the main straight at Bathurst and as the car goes over a slight hump it gets wheelspin at 156 MPH..............kind of hard to argue with that when it comes to reasons for motor swaps.

Tom

I'm in pretty much the same camp as you MaseratiGuy. For some reason it just bothers me when I see an engine swap with an engine from a different marque being used, it may make the car better, more reliable, more powerful, but it's just off to me.

I got my 240SX in my late teens and when I thought of engine swaps, I thought of Q45 V8's or 300ZX V6 swaps, not 'merican V6's or V8's, even though those were probably way easier, way cheaper, and more cost effective in the HP department. It just wouldn't have felt right to me.

I don't want to LS all the things.

"MGA even built a handful of double overhead camshaft engines so a Miata in an MGA isn't all that horrible."

Yup - this is the one out of my race car:

I know motor swaps can "improve" things, ....but, they also make the car less of what it is. For instance: A Volvo 240 with a red block is still 100% a Volvo 240, BUT a Volvo 240 with a ford 302 is ....well, shouldn't you just have gotten a Mustang?

maseratiguy wrote: I know motor swaps can "improve" things, ....but, they also make the car less of what it is. For instance: A Volvo 240 with a red block is still 100% a Volvo 240, BUT a Volvo 240 with a ford 302 is ....well, shouldn't you just have gotten a Mustang?

Ha. This is exactly where my mind ends up most of the time when I start thinking about project cars now. Maybe it's a sign of maturity, or just plain laziness.

Here's an example. I really like the look of the 3rd gen Camaro, even bought one as a project car, at first I thought, oh I'll just throw in an LS+T56 and that'll solve the anemic engine and trans issues. Oh and the third gen interior is pretty crappy, I could figure out how to put in the interior from a 4th gen donor car. Then I though, damn it would be nice to swap in the IRS from a Corvette. When I finally sat back to look at my plans I realized that I could just buy a Corvette and still be cheaper and faster than the Frankensteined Camaro, with an even nicer interior.

Bill Malik's group 5 Volvo 240 rally car is responsible for my love of Swedish bricks.

I'm not crazy about V8s I am the first to admit the reason they get used are they are great motors. The likes of Bizzarini et al had the right idea.

So why not buy a Mustang instead of putting a V8 in a Volvo? Well the Volvo has nice progressive suspension so they ride and handle well, something that can't be said of fox body Mustangs in stock trim, the Volvo doesn't have a plasticky interior either. Obviously you can turbo the 240 and get lots of power but said V8 is less fussy. The V8 will likely weigh less than the 240 turbo motor.

When dealing with high volume fairly pedestrian cars I think any motor that keeps them on the road and people interested in them is good.

My evil contrary mind has always wished to do terrible things to sacred cars; I once told my brother that I wanted to put a Datsun 240z motor in a split window Corvette or an Anglia engine in his GTO........he didn't see the humor.

Note I have been corrupted as on the Datsun 1200 website we have several members with Sprigets, Morris Minors and Spitfires using Datsun A14 and A15 engines.

Volvo developed the 200 series with the intent to offer a V8 option, but concluded that the market for it didn't warrant developing such an engine. Instead, the went with a 90-degree 2.7L V6 as a joint venture with Peugeot and Renault, commonly called the PRV engine, that was nothing but trouble. Few survive, at least in Volvos. So, if you wanted to replace of those with a SBC or Ford Windsor V8, there's plenty of room for one and you wouldn't be far off the original concept.

I know all of this, but somehow it still seems....I dunno' ...just a bit off. But If you installed a Volvo V8 from the later cars...now that seems right. Maybe I'm just daft?