So I was thinking earlier today how it would be kinda awesome to get an older truck with a 454 or 460 tow pig, just to do a mild build and add some sidepipes and enjoy the awesomeness but then I thought to myself boy, I would only get 8mpg while towing our race car or a camper trailer. But then I remembered my dad just got a nearly new Navigator with the twin turbo 3.5 that gets 22mpg on the highway, and while towing their camper (5500lb) down to key west they got... 8.5mpg. Granted, there's going to be other factors in there (24' camper is pretty sizable) but I was thinking is it really possible to get more than 10mpg while towing a race car+trailer? Or a decent sized camper? Is diesel the only thing that'll really do that or would a fuel injected big block built for low-end power with appropriate gearing be able to get 12mpg while towing a light race car?
This is mostly just a thought excercise, for our tow pig we're planning on getting a full size van and converting the inside to a basic RV. Well, unless I find an old 454SS for sale for cheap, then I'd have to get that instead.
In reply to infinitenexus :
My E250(ex-GRM van) gets right around 10mpg with a car on an open trailer. Which I figure isn't too bad for a large van. Pickups seem to get better mileage though.
ShawnG
UltimaDork
6/15/20 3:30 p.m.
You need to burn fuel to do a job. At some point, it's just not going to get better.
Tom Suddard
Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/15/20 3:35 p.m.
My V10 4x4 F-250 gets as good as 14.5 empty. Towing my 20' trailer it gets 8-9.5 depending on whether I cruise at 80 or 65. Yeah, as ShawnG said it's basic physics to a certain extent.
In reply to infinitenexus :
You do realize the 454 SS pickup has only 235 SAE net horsepower don't you?
But modern pickups get astonishing great fuel mileage.
I went from San Diego to Minneapolis with my 2016 1/2 ton V8 4x4 pickup pulling the 4665pound Jaguar XJS V 12 on a tandem axle UHaul trailer and with over 3000 pounds of Jaguar and MG parts in the bed I got 14.5 MPG. I averaged 72.2 mph. Yes that included driving over the Sierra Nevada Mountains and the Rockies through Denver
ShawnG
UltimaDork
6/15/20 3:59 p.m.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I used that article when I built the 460 in my tow pig. Used the full Banks kit too.
I don't think the fuel economy got any better but it did make more power.
Comparing via my calibrated butt dyno, our current 1999 L29 Vortec 454 vs our old 1991 460EFI with a full Banks system and all the mods in the article above, the 460 made more power than the 454 and the fuel economy was about the same. I'd build another 460 any day.
The only thing I've done that actually reduced fuel burn was sticking to the speed limit. That "power goes up on a logarithmic scale" thing is 100% true when you're trying to shove something with the aerodynamics of a tool shed through the air.
frenchyd said:
In reply to infinitenexus :
You do realize the 454 SS pickup has only 235 SAE net horsepower don't you?
A 454SS in my hands would not stay at 235hp for very long at all.
Thanks for the answers guys, this will be used in the future to support any desire for a big block tow pig if I find one! or a van/RV deal.
Fueled by Caffeine said:
follow the recipe from the ancient fourwheeler magazine project MPG. They spent $4800 in 1999 dollars to gain 3MPG on the highway?
http://performanceunlimited.com/projectmpg/results.html
the 4mpg city they gained nearly doubled what that monster was getting! I definitely would get something smaller than that. Still would love a 460 though, with some mods to help efficiency/power/fun/noise
dps214
Reader
6/15/20 4:11 p.m.
Open trailer or enclosed? Open, there's any number of things gas and diesel that will do 10-15mpg easily. Even a short/light enclosed is going to be difficult to clear 10 doing reasonable speeds. The diesel we used to tow with was about the best case for highway towing mileage (pre-emissions, manual, 2wd 24V cummins with a tuner, intake, and turbo back exhaust) and I think the best we ever saw with the 20' enclosed at about 6.5k lbs loaded was high 12s. Any amount of hills and that dropped to 11+/-0.5mpg. That truck was recently replaced with a '19 f150 3.5 ecoboost. Initial results are high single digits, but so far it's only seen short trips over relatively hilly terrain. So I'd say there's a chance we could see 10 under ideal circumstances on longer trips but I'm not holding my breath. But even 8-9mpg gas is comparable in fuel cost in most places to 11-12mpg diesel. He's also only run it on 87 so far, 93 and a tune could make for better mileage, but probably not enough to offset the additional fuel cost. Based on my limited experience with older big block gas truck engines, your estimation of getting 8mpg towing with one is...optimistic.
I think the think killing the MPG on the expedition is the frontal area of the trailer. And possibly the speed. I'm hoping we have a member with a later model EB that can chime in on car towing. With my '13 EB 150 I get about 12 towing a 3k lb boat and trailer combo at 55-65. But I only average just under 15 around town, I know the newer models do better in both situations.But getting double digits towing real weight is hard for a gas truck no matter how you slice it.
dps214
Reader
6/15/20 4:30 p.m.
ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) said:
I think the think killing the MPG on the expedition is the frontal area of the trailer. And possibly the speed. I'm hoping we have a member with a later model EB that can chime in on car towing. With my '13 EB 150 I get about 12 towing a 3k lb boat and trailer combo at 55-65. But I only average just under 15 around town, I know the newer models do better in both situations.But getting double digits towing real weight is hard for a gas truck no matter how you slice it.
Yes, frontal area (really rear area and the giant low pressure hole the trailer leaves behind it I think) is the killer. If you want to get decent mileage with an enclosed trailer, the only real answer is a low roof. Of course that doesn't really work for camping trailers or if you want to do.....anything inside your car trailer.
In reply to infinitenexus :
I agree. but they spent like $8k in 2020 dollars for that gain..
Worst average I've ever had is 11mpg, lifetime 84,000 miles is 18.4. Right at 5500 miles have been towing a trailer.
In reply to chandler :
which motor? I'm going to look at a 2.7 ecoboost tonight.
Fueled by Caffeine said:
In reply to infinitenexus :
I agree. but they spent like $8k in 2020 dollars for that gain..
The majority of that cost was the overdrive unit, which is probably a non-issue for most new trucks. Everything else is just basic bolt-ons.
dps214
Reader
6/15/20 4:57 p.m.
FYI for anyone shopping new or new enough to still be under warranty and is looking to tow an enclosed trailer or even a heavy car on an open trailer (or a normal car on a heavy trailer). This is incredibly poorly documented but any f150 regardless of its tow rating is only warrantied to 5k lbs towing (maybe also with some restrictions on frontal area?) unless it has the MAX tow package (which is different from the normal tow package) in which case it's warrantied to 10k lbs. I assume the other manufacturers are playing similar games but never looked into it.
2010 F150, 5.4L, 6 speed auto, 100% bone stock. I get 17-18mpg empty and 11-12mpg as pictured @ 70mph.
In reply to chandler :
I'm looking at a 2.7 2016 tonight. Found a lease return with 30k miles.
ProDarwin said:
Fueled by Caffeine said:
In reply to infinitenexus :
I agree. but they spent like $8k in 2020 dollars for that gain..
The majority of that cost was the overdrive unit, which is probably a non-issue for most new trucks. Everything else is just basic bolt-ons.
Kinda what I was thinking. Nowadays you could get a cheap set of headers from summit, have a muffler shop do a freer flowing exhaust, a few hundred in other bolt ons and swap your rear end gears and probably get comparable gains for less.
I towed my 3500lbs racecar with another 1000lbs of stuff in it on a Uhaul trailer behind my dad's V6 Colorado. I was getting 15mpg instantaneous the entire trip and it towed that trailer great in city and highway.
84FSP
UltraDork
6/15/20 5:11 p.m.
In reply to infinitenexus :
I got 12.5mpg avg (flat with few hills) with a 2015 4Runner towing 5500 lbs at 70-75mph this weekend to the dyno tuner. Saw a rowdy first gen rx7 rallyx enroute.
infinitenexus said:
Kinda what I was thinking. Nowadays you could get a cheap set of headers from summit, have a muffler shop do a freer flowing exhaust, a few hundred in other bolt ons and swap your rear end gears and probably get comparable gains for less.
Eh, I bet the gains would be quite a bit less as well. I don't think I would ever head down that path purely in search of efficiency.
If any of those things could add mpg that easily, Ford could/would produce them for *way* less cost and make them stock on the truck.
