2004 Honda Odyssey motor mounts

EVERY (and I do mean every) manufacturer pays discounted rates for warranty repaid because, well, they're fottingthe bill. Most decent techs can BARELY squeak by on most warranty repairs keeping even, but even then, theydon't get paid for the time it took to diagnose, and clean up. It's a barebones, this is waht we're paying so get over it. . . Dealers couldn't stay open getting paid warranty rates. Period.

It's so odd that so many people work hard to make money and get ahead. But they expect dealerships to do it for free. They're a business trying to make money, offering a service. They can't stay there fixing your cars for free. Can you go to work every day and do it for exactly what it costs to get there, do it and go home? Nope. And neither can they.

Bobzilla wrote: EVERY (and I do mean every) manufacturer pays discounted rates for warranty repaid because, well, they're fottingthe bill. Most decent techs can BARELY squeak by on most warranty repairs keeping even, but even then, theydon't get paid for the time it took to diagnose, and clean up. It's a barebones, this is waht we're paying so get over it. . . Dealers couldn't stay open getting paid warranty rates. Period. It's so odd that so many people work hard to make money and get ahead. But they expect dealerships to do it for free. They're a business trying to make money, offering a service. They can't stay there fixing your cars for free. Can you go to work every day and do it for exactly what it costs to get there, do it and go home? Nope. And neither can they.

Sorry if I implied somewhere along the way that I expected the dealership to do it for free. I didn't expect not to pay for the repair.

I guess it boils down to the fact that I don't agree with the flat rate process. The hourly rate charged by a mechanic includes profit, as it clearly should. I'm fine with that. Going forward, I will choose to go to a mechanic who bills for actual hours at his/her stated hourly rate. If the job takes 1.25 hours, I will pay it. If the job takes 3.5, I will pay that too. If the job takes 1.25 hours, I will not pay for 3.5 hours.

Sorry for angering you guys. That was not my intent.

Good luck with that. All the independant shops I know of charge by flat rate as well. They just charge less per hour because they don't have to pay for a franchise, factory tools, factory training and support and such. Even with that they still charge almost the same hourly rate (65-75 compared to 90-100). Only with them, they don't have a lot of the same diagnostic capablites at their disposal so they start by swapping the most likely part (charging you) and then if that doesn't fix it move on to the next.

If you think you don't like it, mechanics don't either. If there's no work, they don't get paid. If something takes too long, they don't make money. Most guys right now are fighting over anything because a slow economy means people aren't spending money on their cars.

I/We/group have always thought that the better route to go is an hourly/salary position that pays bonuses for positive survey results. then the customer pays flat rates for a job depending on the difficulty. But, dealers are not accustomed to change and this has fallen on deaf ears for years.

can we all agree that the dealer berkeleyed up by telling him the 3.5 hour job was done in under 90 minutes?

to jensenman: the cost of the mechanic's tools is not the customer's problem. we did not choose his career.

to bobzilla: your attitude of "STFU! if you can't do it yourself then you'll pay whatever we decide to charge!" is ridiculous, and is a big contributor to customers seeking independent repair shops. you are an ambassador of your industry, and mouthing off like this in public will almost certainly push people away from dealership service departments.

What if the shoe was on the other foot? Say you call a plumber because your toilet is jacked. He fixes your toilet in 1.5 hours, then hands you a bill with 3.5 hours of labor on it because "that's what the book says this job takes." are you not going to suggest that the book be rewritten?

Bobzilla wrote: Good luck with that. All the independant shops I know of charge by flat rate as well.

Probably so. Luckily, I use a good one that doesn't charge flat rate for work on my wagon. Now that the Honda is out of warranty, I will start using him for things like motor mounts too.

I/We/group have always thought that the better route to go is an hourly/salary position that pays bonuses for positive survey results. then the customer pays flat rates for a job depending on the difficulty. But, dealers are not accustomed to change and this has fallen on deaf ears for years.

That sounds like a better plan. It would be great to see the industry make that shift eventually.

AngryCorvair wrote: to bobzilla: your attitude of "STFU! if you can't do it yourself then you'll pay whatever we decide to charge!" is ridiculous, and is a big contributor to customers seeking independent repair shops. you are an ambassador of your industry, and mouthing off like this in public will almost certainly push people away from dealership service departments. What if the shoe was on the other foot? Say you call a plumber because your toilet is jacked. He fixes your toilet in 1.5 hours, then hands you a bill with 3.5 hours of labor on it because "that's what the book says this job takes." are you not going to suggest that the book be rewritten?

No, I would not. If I can not fix it myself, then I let the person who has the training, skills and tools do the job for me. I understand that there are times when a particular job will nottake as long as that same job at some other time on some other location and if they charge by the average job, that is the cost you pay.

I have not ONCE told anyone to "STFU" and have tried to explain it as best I can to those that have no idea of what it is they rant, cry and whine about. I am not always the most eloquent with my words, because some peopel just can't follow it. Plain. Straight. To the point.

I do not go to a Printing office and ask for a print job to be done. Then when they call me and tell me it's done early I ask for a partial refund because it didn't take them as long and they didn't use as much manpower as they thought so therefore I should not be required to pay full price.

Look, we don't go to the Doctor and request a procedure to be done then demand a refund if he did a better job than expected and your recovery was faster than expected do we?

The dealer gettign the job done early is a sign of good service. They worked hard to get the customer out the door faster than they had promised. Knowing that the customer was ON SITE and WAITING for the vehicle, they tried to please the customer by getting them out and on their way in a timely manner. Had it NOT been done in 3.5 hours, and instead took 4 we'd be seeing thread complaining about how "it took so long to do the work and I had to wait for ever." Trust me, I read the surveys. I hear the complaints. This is a no-win situtation. so they do the best they can, get the customers car completed as quickly as possible, correctly and on their way and HOPE the customer is satisfied with the work done.

dyintorace wrote:

Jensenman wrote:

dyintorace wrote: The worst part of all of this was that our extended warranty expired at 75k miles. We're at 83k miles.

Aha. The true complaint with this whole thing rears its head. Did you know that the service contract company (th 'extended warranty') likely would have paid the same or close to it for your repair? Of course, that would be OK. APBM (Anybody Pays But Me) syndrome.

Correct to the extent that this post would not have occurred had the repair been paid by warranty. That doesn't mean it would make it any more fair though. And, to contradict your point, the service manager slipped and said that Honda would pay 1.7 flat rate for this exact repair. Given that, my guess is the contract company lists the repair at 1.7 as well. So, why does Chilton list the repair at 3.4? I really am curious and not just trying to throw stones.

I think the 1.7 hour time you are referring to the time printed in the Honda factory manual which is what Bobzilla referred to as 'warranty time'. Thst shi+ is NOT based in reality.

I've used this example before: the average warranty time paid to replace a radio is .2. That's 2/10ths of an hour, or 12 minutes. In that amount of time, the technician is expected to: 1) get the repair order, 2) pull the car into the stall, 3)properly diagnose the condition, 4) go to the parts counter and get the radio, 5) remove the old one and install the new one, 6) return the old radio to the parts department, 7)double check his work 8) return the vehicle to the parking area and 9) do the required documentation of that repair for warranty purposes. In addition, if it turns out that there is a problem with the repair he is now expected to do it all over again for free unless the part is found to be defective in which case he is paid 2/10ths of an hour again. No one can make a living at that. The manufacturers know it but they truly don't give a shi+. So where's the 'fair' in that? The technician is supposed to let his family starve in the name of being 'fair'? Not bloody likely.

I do service contract repairs each and every day. I use the Motors 18888 manual, the 2008 edition with every one of them. The ONLY exception is Chrysler's own 'in-house' service contract (CSC) which is administered by their warranty department and all work is done at their warranty rates. It's also the most rare of all contracts because the dealerships found out REAL quick they make some money on the contract up front but it doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to paying techs a living wage. So techs leave and I honestly don't blame them. You will find that to be true of all the manufactuers, their 'in-house' contracts blow chunks. A good example of just how crappy those manufacturer administered contracts are: the dealer group I work for has its own 'in-house' contract which is NOT administered by the manufacturer and we use Motors time for those.

The aftermarket manuals (Chilton, Motors, etc) are based as much as possible on real life experience and they add an allowance for busted bolts etc. (Even they get it way wrong sometimes.) They also take into account how bad techs get screwed on warranty time. So that means in effect that the customers who pay for their work are subsidizing the manufacturers' warranty.

If you want to fix something that's truly 'unfair', you get the manufacturers to pay a living wage. Good luck, let me know how that works out.

OK, serious question for Jensenman:

what percentage of total work, in either number of jobs or number of flat-rate hours, is warranty work?

i agree that 12 minutes for what you stated is not enough time, but how often does that job come up?

AngryCorvair wrote: can we all agree that the dealer berkeleyed up by telling him the 3.5 hour job was done in under 90 minutes?

Yeah, the service advisor screwed up. There's many ways around the illusion of overcharging for a job.

AngryCorvair wrote: to jensenman: the cost of the mechanic's tools is not the customer's problem. we did not choose his career.

Yeah. Walk into the hospital and tell them 'I didn't choose your career, so you can't charge me to help recover the cost of all that training, tools, equipment and other stuff you'll use to keep me alive.' Lemme know how that works.

^ Kudos. WEll said.

Trust me, we in the industry work HARD to take care of our customers. There are bad ones out there and they make our job even harder. You think you're mad hearing about some shop ripping off a customer? It makes us even madder. Now we have to overcome the stereotype they've cast over us. "Stealership" is the one that gets me the most.

Quickie, then I'm off my soapbox. Customer came in some time back, needed front and rear pads and the rotors turned. They declined, came back a week later complaining of brake noise. They had taken it to the local Car-X (or some other chain) who sold them calipers, pads, rotors, rear brake hoses and an alignment. All told, $1200. Our original quote was $490 for OEM parts. The origin of their noise were rear brake pads installed backwards. That's right, backing of the pad facing the rotor surface. So, trying to save money, they instead pad almost 3 times more on things they did not need and STILL had to bring the car back for us to fix their screw up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you get what you pay for.

AngryCorvair wrote: OK, serious question for Jensenman: what percentage of total work, in either number of jobs or number of flat-rate hours, is warranty work? i agree that 12 minutes for what you stated is not enough time, but how often does that job come up?

Warranty work accounts for about 60% of our total volume on a normal month.

AngryCorvair wrote: OK, serious question for Jensenman: what percentage of total work, in either number of jobs or number of flat-rate hours, is warranty work? i agree that 12 minutes for what you stated is not enough time, but how often does that job come up?

Around 35% of our stuff is warranty work. That varies from week to week, of course.

We average probably 8 radios a week. Here's the thing: that's only one of the most blatant examples. There is a bulletin floating around to replace all 4 ABS wheel speed sensors on a Pacifica which pays something like 1.2. BUT- you gotta remove all 4 hubs because you can't take the sensors out of the rear of the knuckle. Do THAT in an hour and 12 minutes.

O2 sensors generally pay .4 each. That's 24 minutes to properly diagnose it and all the other crap I mentioned with the radio repair. You better hope it ain't seized in the pipe and require removal of the exhaust to get to it to heat it for removal: the most I have ever seen paid for something like that is another .5. If you are unlucky enough that it won't come out in one piece and Chrysler wants it back for examination, you are screwed blued and tattoooed. They will 'kick back' the claim and you don't get a dime, plus you are out the cost of the part.

Not to mention it's EXTREMELY rare for a warranty time to be increased during a review. Generally they stay the same or they go down. Some VW administrative personnel told me that their times were 'computer generated'. 'Computer generated' from WHAT? Thin air? Mouse farts? Leprechaun pimples?

I could go on all day.

Import shops are more warranty work inclined I've noticed. A.) our warranties are longer and 2.) they tend to "goodwill" more to keep some things (like camry head gaskets, or accord trannies) secret or at least under cover for as long as they can.

I'm totally confused. You had an opportunity to call around and quote a few shops if you wanted, you even have a track record with another shop that you feel does ya right normally. So, when you went into the deal knowing it would cost $XXX and got your car exactly as you wanted (fixed with OEM parts at the dealership) you're then fuming about getting it back too fast.

If you don't like how they charge, and you knew full well that they were charging "flat rate" rather than actual time, why did you get the work done there???? Flat rate is an average time for an average mechanic. Why aren't you happy that you were fortunate enough to have an experienced mechanic do it successfully in less time, thus allowing you to get on with your life that much sooner instead of downing four more cups of crappy free coffee while you wait and flipping through four more crappy magazines?

My old man is a flat rate mechanic. If you think you're pissed about flat rate hours, you should hear him gripe! Some jobs are absolutely ridiculous, as has been pointed out, especially warranty rates. A few tenths for brake jobs, simple fixes, etc. isn't even enough to cover the time it takes to fill out the work order, pull the car in, get it on a lift, and wash your hands when you're done to get ready for the next job. The time it takes to get ready/finish the job is longer than the job even pays, ignoring doing the job and going above and beyond to check for other issues while you're in there, and if something goes wrong like a broken bolt or waiting on parts, you're out that much more time and a service bay. My dad is very fast compared to book rates and the majority of that is because he has been doing it so long that he knows what he's doing better than guys with less experience and he's also got tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools, probably well over $100k over his career spent on tools. He's not required to have these tools, and he could save a lot of money by using basic tools, but he's invested in tools that allow him to get the job done faster. Sure he can get a 16 hour clutch job done in 7 hours, but he's got $1500 worth of tools that he used for that job that you don't have and 15 years of experience over his coworker that can do it in 9 hours with the same tools. He'll also be a hell of a lot more sore than the younger guy doing it in 9 hours, but that's how he makes his living.

I just got some work done on my house, they reworked a section of the chimney to repair some weak mortar. I had three places bid for the job. The one that seemed most trustworthy and knowledgeable also happened to be the cheapest. They also got the job done in about 8 man-hours than they expected (about 24 man-hours instead of 32) and the quality was up to our expectations. I paid the bill for the quote they gave me before they started the job. Should I be dissatisfied because they got done sooner than they paid? IMO, of course not, I bid the job to three places and knew exactly what it would cost before going into it. The bricklayers I got were good at what they did and finished quicker than one of the other crews might have and probably did a better job because they had more experience than the other average crews.

I can't tell whether it's the dealership, the mechanic, the service manager, or the system that you're upset with...sounds to me that the more frustrating thing is that Honda is charging you a pile of cash for a very common repair a few thousand miles after you're out of warranty. If you had taken it in at the end of your warranty they should have spotted it then and done it free of charge. IMO, your gripe that they charged you too much is completely unwarranted because they gave you a quote before they started. You KNEW it was flat rate, what it would cost, etc. going into the deal so I don't understand how you could be so frustrated. It's not like you dropped it off for an oil change and they came out with a $500 bill telling you what work they did. They quoted the job, you accepted. Perhaps I'm being insensitive, but this is how business works isn't it?

Along the lines of upcharging, did you compare the part cost for an OEM part at the cheapest online source versus the dealership price? As with any business, there are profit margins factored in based on supply and demand.

Bryce

/end rant, there goes my lunch break!

About bringing it in to be checked for free stuff before the warranty runs out: that's called 'upselling warranty' and a dealership better not get caught at that. That's an automatic audit trigger plus you lose the ability to self authorize claims. This can happen with the factory 'base' warranty, factory administered service contracts and also the 'aftermarket' service contracts.

If you lose DSA (Dealer Self Authorize) status that means when Mr and Mrs Customer bring their car in for service and a warranty repair is over a certain threshold (usually $500.00) the district rep has to be contacted before the repairs can be completed. That can take a couple of days, especially if he has to come visually inspect the repair himself or send an inspector; meantime you can't proceed without the inspection and authorization and now Mr and Mrs Customer REALLY get mad.

Usually when I look at repairs like this, I look at the total amount and how long it would take me to do it. Then all you have to do is decide whether or not it is worth it ,to you, to not do it yourself. Don't look at the hours billed. Was it worth $500.00 for you to not have to climb under a nasty 80000 mile car to change the mounts. Obviously it was or you wouldn't have had them do the job. Look at as I didn't have to wait 4 hours to get my car back. These guys are on it and took care of me quick. Smile and pay the bill.

I would much rather do cost plus or by the hour work personally. Then the customer assumes all the responsibility when things go wrong. If he had broken a bolt off in the block and had to spend 10 hours fixing it, by the hour, you bill could have gone well over a grand.

Just had a tranny in one of my work vans replaced. Probably could have done it myself for less than $1000.00. I paid $1800.00. Took the shop less than a day to complete it. That means I probably paid better than $150.00 per hour. I just smiled and paid the bill. The guys did a good job and I don't begrudge them making a profit.

Jensenman wrote: About bringing it in to be checked for free stuff before the warranty runs out: that's called 'upselling warranty' and a dealership better not get caught at that. That's an automatic audit trigger plus you lose the ability to self authorize claims. This can happen with the factory 'base' warranty, factory administered service contracts and also the 'aftermarket' service contracts. If you lose DSA (Dealer Self Authorize) status that means when Mr and Mrs Customer bring their car in for service and a warranty repair is over a certain threshold (usually $500.00) the district rep has to be contacted before the repairs can be completed. That can take a couple of days, especially if he has to come visually inspect the repair himself or send an inspector; meantime you can't proceed without the inspection and authorization and now Mr and Mrs Customer REALLY get mad.

If you go get your oil changed at 75k miles, right when your warranty runs up, and ask for a full inspection for $100 (or whatever they charge)...that's not upselling warranty, that's the customer asking for an inspection. If you, as a dealership tech getting paid to do an inspection, spot a part that's failed and recommend replacement under warranty...there's no foul here. If they're just in for an oil change and you point it out, then that would be upselling. I still argue that the company should go above and beyond to spot these problems and point them out, even if they are technically upselling to themselves, because it improves customer relationships...but at the same time drives up warranty numbers, etc. so it's a gray area in the world of auto quality, repair, profits, etc. with way too many conflicting interests.

As pointed out earlier, warranty doesn't pay crap to a tech, a tech will only upsell warranty work if they're really desperate for work, a glutton for punishment, know of some gravy job they're really good at, or some combination of those. If the mechanic doesn't see any failed parts, everybody is happy. If the car has broken mounts 5k miles later...then there's plenty of potential for some finger pointing and the dealership can't play the innocent card quite so quickly, but it could go either way depending on the situation. This takes care of all parties involved in the best way, IMO, because the customer is willing to pay a few bucks extra for a full inspection to make sure all is well and good before they're done with their warranty...techs/service writers don't look like they're upselling because you've requested it, the company gets a few bucks to do the inspection to avoid wasting time/money if all is well and good, and the customer can rest assured that they've maximized their investment in a new vehicle with a warranty instead of buying used.

Bryce

Nashco wrote: I'm totally confused. You had an opportunity to call around and quote a few shops if you wanted, you even have a track record with another shop that you feel does ya right normally. So, when you went into the deal knowing it would cost $XXX and got your car exactly as you wanted (fixed with OEM parts at the dealership) you're then fuming about getting it back too fast.

Not exactly. They told me it was a 3.5 hour job. I expected to be there for 3.5 hours and planned my work day accordingly (brought my laptop, scheduled conference calls, etc). I expected to pay the $350 in labor because I expected a 3.5 hour job, as they told my wife yesterday during the oil change and told me again this morning.

When it took less than half that time, I felt had.

Nashco wrote: /end rant, there goes my lunch break!

Great. Now I'll get flamed for this too.

Nashco wrote: If you go get your oil changed at 75k miles, right when your warranty runs up, and ask for a full inspection for $100 (or whatever they charge)...that's not upselling warranty, that's the customer asking for an inspection. If you, as a dealership tech getting paid to do an inspection, spot a part that's failed and recommend replacement under warranty...there's no foul here. If they're just in for an oil change and you point it out, then that would be upselling. I still argue that the company should go above and beyond to spot these problems and point them out, even if they are technically upselling to themselves, because it improves customer relationships...but at the same time drives up warranty numbers, etc. so it's a gray area in the world of auto quality, repair, profits, etc. with way too many conflicting interests.

Perhaps inadvertently, but you raise a good point here. We've had the oil changed at the dealership, which I'm willing to pay for because, historically, they've treated us fairly. Our warranty expired recently and we did in fact have an oil change just before warranty expiration. Evidently the mounts deteriorated completely between then and now.

Nashco wrote:

Jensenman wrote: About bringing it in to be checked for free stuff before the warranty runs out: that's called 'upselling warranty' and a dealership better not get caught at that. That's an automatic audit trigger plus you lose the ability to self authorize claims. This can happen with the factory 'base' warranty, factory administered service contracts and also the 'aftermarket' service contracts. If you lose DSA (Dealer Self Authorize) status that means when Mr and Mrs Customer bring their car in for service and a warranty repair is over a certain threshold (usually $500.00) the district rep has to be contacted before the repairs can be completed. That can take a couple of days, especially if he has to come visually inspect the repair himself or send an inspector; meantime you can't proceed without the inspection and authorization and now Mr and Mrs Customer REALLY get mad.

If you go get your oil changed at 75k miles, right when your warranty runs up, and ask for a full inspection for $100 (or whatever they charge)...that's not upselling warranty, that's the customer asking for an inspection. If you, as a dealership tech getting paid to do an inspection, spot a part that's failed and recommend replacement under warranty...there's no foul here. If they're just in for an oil change and you point it out, then that would be upselling. I still argue that the company should go above and beyond to spot these problems and point them out, even if they are technically upselling to themselves, because it improves customer relationships...but at the same time drives up warranty numbers, etc. so it's a gray area in the world of auto quality, repair, profits, etc. with way too many conflicting interests. As pointed out earlier, warranty doesn't pay crap to a tech, a tech will only upsell warranty work if they're really desperate for work, a glutton for punishment, know of some gravy job they're really good at, or some combination of those. If the mechanic doesn't see any failed parts, everybody is happy. If the car has broken mounts 5k miles later...then there's plenty of potential for some finger pointing and the dealership can't play the innocent card quite so quickly, but it could go either way depending on the situation. This takes care of all parties involved in the best way, IMO, because the customer is willing to pay a few bucks extra for a full inspection to make sure all is well and good before they're done with their warranty...techs/service writers don't look like they're upselling because you've requested it, the company gets a few bucks to do the inspection to avoid wasting time/money if all is well and good, and the customer can rest assured that they've maximized their investment in a new vehicle with a warranty instead of buying used. Bryce

Ya know, it sounds great for all concerned until the district rep starts poking holes in it. Plain and simple: don't get caught. I've been flogging service for 22 years now and 1) I know how to keep my fat ass out of that kind of trouble 2) I know how to do it so the rep can suspect but can't prove anything. The way you just mentioned leaves a paper trail as wide as a 6 lane highway. We don't wants no paper trail.

Will everyone here that has, or knows someone that has felt ripped off by a d dealership, please raise their hand. Mines up.

edit: this is not meant to start sh&t with techs, sons of techs, etc., just to open a discussion as to why most people feel that dealerships rip them off.

dyintorace wrote: Not exactly. They told me it was a 3.5 hour job.

I'm just running with what you said:

dyintorace wrote: I say okay, how much? ~$200 in parts and $400 in labor.

They told you a dollar amount, not an amount of time. They don't make you pay with time, they make you pay with dollars that they quote before the job. When you started asking questions about how they come to that dollar amount and they told you the flat rate, you just assumed because they charge 3.5 hours it would take 3.5 hours. That's just a number they use to calculate the dollar amount and is obviously a muddy calculation...averages, overheads, competing with other shops, etc. Sometimes they'll take a bath, sometimes the customer will. If they broke a bolt off in the engine because it was corroded (no fault of the dealerships and no fault of yours) and you paid the same amount for labor, would you feel obligated to pay them more for the extra time? Of course not, you agreed to a price before hand and thems the breaks! If you were like many consumers, even if the price was the same based on their estimated 3.5 hours but you ended up waiting for 7 hours while they fixed the broken bolt, you would have been bitching about how they took twice as long as they said they would (and didn't even give you a discount for wasting your day). This is the reason many people, like myself, would rather pay by the job than by the hour. You know exactly what you're going to pay going into it, no surprises if it takes longer, more materials, etc. It's up to you to find the shop that cuts the margins closer, has a lower hourly rate, has better quality, uses better parts, etc. during your quote process and reward the businesses who you think did you right.

The other alternative is to just do it your damn self, which is what I do with the vast majority of my own projects. I have nobody to blame for going over budget on parts and labor except myself!

Bryce

dyintorace wrote: Perhaps inadvertently, but you raise a good point here. We've had the oil changed at the dealership, which I'm willing to pay for because, historically, they've treated us fairly. Our warranty expired recently and we did in fact have an oil change just before warranty expiration. Evidently the mounts deteriorated completely between then and now.

Not likely, but it is likely that they were worn and without having the car running in the air one wouldn't notice. When one finally failed completely, it puts premature wear on the remaining 2 mounts. They may not have been completely gone, but would you rather they waited on the one that wasn't until it failed in another 5-8k miles and have to pay the alabor all over again?

dyintorace wrote: Not exactly. They told me it was a 3.5 hour job. I expected to be there for 3.5 hours and planned my work day accordingly (brought my laptop, scheduled conference calls, etc). I expected to pay the $350 in labor because I expected a 3.5 hour job, as they told my wife yesterday during the oil change and told me again this morning. When it took less than half that time, I felt had.

Not exactly how it happened. They quoted you a price on labor. YOU then requested to know the book time. They didn't volunteer that information until you cornered them. At least, that's how you told us in your opening post. You asked for information that was of no consequence. You know they pay flat rate. You pushed to know the exact hours and then were mad because it didn't take that long, KNOWING that they pay flat rate. I almost wonder if you really comprehend "flate rate."

ManofFewWords wrote: Will everyone here that has, or knows someone that has felt ripped off by a d dealership, please raise their hand. Mines up. edit: this is not meant to start sh&t with techs, sons of techs, etc., just to open a discussion as to why most people feel that dealerships rip them off.

And those that work for dealerships feel like a customer tried ripping you off please raise your hand. Mine's up.

Door swings both ways folks.

Bobzilla wrote:

ManofFewWords wrote: Will everyone here that has, or knows someone that has felt ripped off by a d dealership, please raise their hand. Mines up. edit: this is not meant to start sh&t with techs, sons of techs, etc., just to open a discussion as to why most people feel that dealerships rip them off.

And those that work for dealerships feel like a customer tried ripping you off please raise your hand. Mine's up. Door swings both ways folks.

HaHa thats funny! Thats why I wont buy another new vehicle..I'm ripping them off!! Where's MY bailout money?

Yes, the door swings both ways. A very common one: there are lots of people who come in wearing all KINDS of jewelry, expensive designer clothes, carrying a CrackBerry, yada yada yada and who bitch mightily about spending anything on their car. They have only done the absolute minimum necessary for maintenance and complained loudly about that, then get a real attitude when I say their car needs this, that or the other.

Let's say there's a transmission leak. The famous response, 'there's gotta be SOME kind of a warranty on that, right?' Sorry, all have expired. 'Well, I can't afford that.' Okey doke.

Then the next time they show up the transmission's still dripping. In the meantime they have called the manufacturer, the general manager, you name it wanting this tranny leak fixed for free. Now I have a cloud around my desk wantig me to just push this lil' ol' fraudulent claim through just this once, OK?

But there's a new set of 22" blingos on it.

Or the people who come in with all kinds of aftermarket parts (spark plug wires, tuneup parts, etc) on their ride but the Check Engine light is on. The refrain is always the same: '(insert indie shop name here) has done all this but my Check Engine light is still on and they say it should be under warranty through the dealer.' Umm, no. We start with a $98 diagnostic charge. 'So why should I have to pay twice to fix this? I've already spent (dollar figure) on this, I don't wanna spend any more.' Yeah, but you didn't spend it with me. Go ask the indie shop owner for your money back for all the crap he sold you that didn't fix your problem. Let me know how that works out, too.

The all time #1 pet peeve: 'I wanna know what's wrong with (insert concern here)'. Okay, we have a a $98 diagnostic charge. 'You mean you charge just to LOOK at it?' Yessir (or ma'am). 'Well, that doesn't seem fair. I just want to know what's wrong with it and how much it will cost to fix. If I think your price is too high, I'm going to get someone else to fix it, so why should I pay your diagnostic charge?' You just stated the reason we charge a diagnostic fee.