$2014 Challenge question: street-legal or not?

I forget why we originally said that Challenge cars had to be street-legal. I remember there was a reason.

So, if starting with a clean sheet of paper, what says the masses: street-legal or not?

Just wondering what that group thinks.

Thanks.

The decision won't determine if i compete or not, but i like the street legal idea because no matter how you slice it, it's a cheaper way to race.

In that you could conceivably drive your car to events. This is about budget racing, what you can race for $2014. Having to budget for a tow rig somewhat defeats the purpose.

I'm not saying that you should have to drive your car to the Challenge, i'm just saying that "Look what you can build and race for $2000!" is a bit hollow when you have to turn around and spend $2k on a trailer and another few grand on a truck because you can't drive your car on the street.

Street legal can be pretty vaguely interpreted, though. Basically if it's something that you can plate and insure and feel like you could drive to local events without being impounded, then that's good enough. Functioning lights, wipers if you've got a windshield, and a body of some sort. (Unless you want to show up in a street legal dune buggy or sand rail, in which case you're THE MAN.)

That all said, if it means that less people are going to show, then i'm COMPLETELY against restricting it to just "Street Legal" cars.

I'd say no.

What is "street legal"

different states have different definitions.

In Texas, with my antique plates, I can have open exhaust, pretty much nothing except headlights/taillights, and I can drive it legally on the strett.

What about a California car? would it have to pass there nutty emissions standards?

IMO, it should be "beer store" streetable. If you can go 10 miles round trip without being pulled over or overheating in stop-n-go city traffic, it is a street car.

David S. Wallens wrote: I forget why we originally said that Challenge cars had to be street-legal. I remember there was a reason. So, if starting with a clean sheet of paper, what says the masses: street-legal or not? Just wondering what that group thinks. Thanks.

Depends on what you think sells magazines. I'd say non-street-legal sounds more like a "hardcore" motorsports magazine

It is not like this could have been driven without hassling by the cops

I vote non-street legal

Yes - it makes them more real. I want to read about real cars in the mag - it would be way easier, no doubt, but if it doesn't have a wiring harness, lights, whatever, it just doesn't seem as useful to me.

My opinion, although now that I've typed it out the argument seems kind of weak. Oh well. It was true, that's what I want to read about.

Ranger50 wrote: IMO, it should be "beer store" streetable. If you can go 10 miles round trip without being pulled over or overheating in stop-n-go city traffic, it is a street car.

Yeah, this.

The rules mention nothing of being street legal, just roadworthy. I take that to mean that it runs and stops and won't kill you at 55mph.

They also leave room for interpretation in things like the "working headlights", as exemplified by Mike Guido's headlights in the back of the car. That kind of creativity is more interesting to me so I vote... non-street legal.

Because (budget) Racecar!

What I said a couple of years ago about "street legal" and my opinion:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/challenge-thoughts/40647/page4/#post694400

Nashco wrote: If I ruled the world, here's what I think I'd do with the $20XX: Have a "parc expose" style showing for an hour just like rally cars do before the event begins. This could be at a local coffee shop or similar, let's say it starts at 8 am on Friday. All cars should display their budget on a spreadsheet or similar during the parc expose so that competitors and commoners alike could see what it really took to make the machine. It would also be fun (but not required) if people had some pictures of their build to show off. At this time, competitors would also have a chance to see the other cars and vote for their favorite, something that is really hard to do with the format as it is normally. All cars would be checked that they meet all the rules at this point, just like is done with a tech inspection sheet at a rally race...lights, wipers, horn, fenders, windshields, etc. are accounted for and functioning. At 9 am, everybody DRIVES their machine from the coffee shop to the race track; this gives the locals a lot more visibility to this event, something that is seriously lacking, and also serves as a litmus test to the vehicles actual ability to be driven on the street. After arriving at the track, business then continues as it does today. If your car can't finish the short drive without intervention (tow, help from crew, etc.), then you DNF, just like in rally. You also have to autocross with the DOT tires you drove on from the coffee shop. Yes, I know a lot of people will think the street driving part is a big hassle because of licensing and insuring stuff, but IMO that is something that is really lacking in the event. Many of these vehicles are barely even capable of competing for 10 minutes without breaking, let alone driving around town, and I don't consider that a good thing. I'm sure people also don't want to drive their nearly corded R-comps from the coffee shop either, but again, I think it would make builds seem like a competitive vehicle that you could race sustainably. If a $20xx race car goes through a transmission, set of tires, head gasket, etc. every weekend you compete...well, then it's a long way from a cheap race car, which is the whole point here. At that rate, a reliable $4000 car would be a hell of a lot better racer value. I know it's a departure from previous challenge mentality, but I don't think it's a huge departure or a negative departure. I like most of the other rules...most. The only other thing I would change is the rules allowing bolt in but not weld in to skip the budget (what's the performance difference between a bunch of 1/2" bolts, a really clever set of pinch bolts, or a weld on each corner???). I think all cage stuff should be in the budget. I definitely don't think tires should be excluded from the budget or have the tire rules changed otherwise. Thanks for listening. Bryce

JoeyM wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: I forget why we originally said that Challenge cars had to be street-legal. I remember there was a reason. So, if starting with a clean sheet of paper, what says the masses: street-legal or not? Just wondering what that group thinks. Thanks.

Depends on what you think sells magazines. I'd say non-street-legal sounds more like a "hardcore" motorsports magazine It is not like this could have been driven without hassling by the cops

Depends where you are.

That could absolutely be driven here.

My exhaust shoots fire at PEOPLE and OTHER CARS instead of straight up in the air, and i've been daily driving it for 4 years, never once stopped for anything relating to the car.

E36 M3, i still have all the event stickers on my car.

Seen here sitting next to mndsm's Challenge Car which was also driven on the street in the state you see in the picture for quite some time.

Nashco wrote: If I ruled the world, here's what I think I'd do with the $20XX: Have a "parc expose" style showing for an hour just like rally cars do before the event begins. This could be at a local coffee shop or similar, let's say it starts at 8 am on Friday. All cars should display their budget on a spreadsheet or similar during the parc expose so that competitors and commoners alike could see what it really took to make the machine. It would also be fun (but not required) if people had some pictures of their build to show off. At this time, competitors would also have a chance to see the other cars and vote for their favorite, something that is really hard to do with the format as it is normally. All cars would be checked that they meet all the rules at this point, just like is done with a tech inspection sheet at a rally race...lights, wipers, horn, fenders, windshields, etc. are accounted for and functioning. At 9 am, everybody DRIVES their machine from the coffee shop to the race track; this gives the locals a lot more visibility to this event, something that is seriously lacking, and also serves as a litmus test to the vehicles actual ability to be driven on the street. After arriving at the track, business then continues as it does today. If your car can't finish the short drive without intervention (tow, help from crew, etc.), then you DNF, just like in rally. You also have to autocross with the DOT tires you drove on from the coffee shop. Yes, I know a lot of people will think the street driving part is a big hassle because of licensing and insuring stuff, but IMO that is something that is really lacking in the event. Many of these vehicles are barely even capable of competing for 10 minutes without breaking, let alone driving around town, and I don't consider that a good thing. I'm sure people also don't want to drive their nearly corded R-comps from the coffee shop either, but again, I think it would make builds seem like a competitive vehicle that you could race sustainably. If a $20xx race car goes through a transmission, set of tires, head gasket, etc. every weekend you compete...well, then it's a long way from a cheap race car, which is the whole point here. At that rate, a reliable $4000 car would be a hell of a lot better racer value. I know it's a departure from previous challenge mentality, but I don't think it's a huge departure or a negative departure. I like most of the other rules...most. The only other thing I would change is the rules allowing bolt in but not weld in to skip the budget (what's the performance difference between a bunch of 1/2" bolts, a really clever set of pinch bolts, or a weld on each corner???). I think all cage stuff should be in the budget. I definitely don't think tires should be excluded from the budget or have the tire rules changed otherwise. Thanks for listening. Bryce

fritzsch wrote:

Nashco wrote: If I ruled the world, here's what I think I'd do with the $20XX: Have a "parc expose" style showing for an hour just like rally cars do before the event begins. This could be at a local coffee shop or similar, let's say it starts at 8 am on Friday. All cars should display their budget on a spreadsheet or similar during the parc expose so that competitors and commoners alike could see what it really took to make the machine. It would also be fun (but not required) if people had some pictures of their build to show off. At this time, competitors would also have a chance to see the other cars and vote for their favorite, something that is really hard to do with the format as it is normally. All cars would be checked that they meet all the rules at this point, just like is done with a tech inspection sheet at a rally race...lights, wipers, horn, fenders, windshields, etc. are accounted for and functioning. At 9 am, everybody DRIVES their machine from the coffee shop to the race track; this gives the locals a lot more visibility to this event, something that is seriously lacking, and also serves as a litmus test to the vehicles actual ability to be driven on the street. After arriving at the track, business then continues as it does today. If your car can't finish the short drive without intervention (tow, help from crew, etc.), then you DNF, just like in rally. You also have to autocross with the DOT tires you drove on from the coffee shop. Yes, I know a lot of people will think the street driving part is a big hassle because of licensing and insuring stuff, but IMO that is something that is really lacking in the event. Many of these vehicles are barely even capable of competing for 10 minutes without breaking, let alone driving around town, and I don't consider that a good thing. I'm sure people also don't want to drive their nearly corded R-comps from the coffee shop either, but again, I think it would make builds seem like a competitive vehicle that you could race sustainably. If a $20xx race car goes through a transmission, set of tires, head gasket, etc. every weekend you compete...well, then it's a long way from a cheap race car, which is the whole point here. At that rate, a reliable $4000 car would be a hell of a lot better racer value. I know it's a departure from previous challenge mentality, but I don't think it's a huge departure or a negative departure. I like most of the other rules...most. The only other thing I would change is the rules allowing bolt in but not weld in to skip the budget (what's the performance difference between a bunch of 1/2" bolts, a really clever set of pinch bolts, or a weld on each corner???). I think all cage stuff should be in the budget. I definitely don't think tires should be excluded from the budget or have the tire rules changed otherwise. Thanks for listening. Bryce

I'm just gonna quote this again.

At the CMP race in Lemons there was a parade in the town. Now, the crapcan stuff is decidedly lower class when it comes to street ability than the Challenge cars, so a parade to and fro would be an excellent idea. Hot Rod did something like it with their realstreet challenge thing a while ago, but the execution was a little weak. A cars n' coffee event prior to the competition would be awesome.

Otherwise, where does it stop? Can I push start the car every time and save money and weight by omitting the starter and battery? etc...

Requirements to get tags varies from state to state. I can tag anything over 20 years old historic in Maryland with no inspection, no requirements, no emissions, etc and be completely legal without having to pay someone off. If I was still in NY, that would be much harder to do.

Street legal = no. Road worthy = yes.

GRM World Headquarters is in Florida. Compared to PA, FL has a very loose definition of "street-legal". I think a FL street-legal requirement would suit the event.

I have a Pro Street Duster in my shop now. It came from FL. It didn't have any wipers. It's getting them reinstalled along with a few other things to make it PA legal now.

Pat wrote: Requirements to get tags varies from state to state. I can tag anything over 20 years old historic in Maryland with no inspection, no requirements, no emissions, etc and be completely legal without having to pay someone off. If I was still in NY, that would be much harder to do. Street legal = no. Road worthy = yes.

Keep in mind that temporary (trip) permits are usually extremely cheap and easy to get. Still depends on the state, but for the handful of cars that do not have tags this seems a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things.

Bryce

You gotta think outside the box.......

When I competed in the Challenge we got a decent car cheap, drove it 500 miles to the competition, competed, and drove it back home. There are no points for making good choices when getting cars, just what you do after you get the cars.

Mark

I don't think the tag/registration is the real issue here. The issue with driving one of these cars on the street is insurance. What if there's an accident where you hurt or kill someone with your car?

I would think that like any competition you only need to make the cars legal for the event they will be competing in. Since the Challenge takes place in Florida, that would be where one should worry about making the vehicle "legal"

You can still trailer the car and stop on the way into Florida/town to pick up a trip permit if necessary.

If there are people who want to drive the cars to/from the event then they'll get to do the necessary work to make that happen.

hrdlydangerous wrote: I don't think the tag/registration is the real issue here. The issue with driving one of these cars on the street is insurance. What if there's an accident where you hurt or kill someone with your car?

I'm pretty sure every single person on this board is able to insure their vehicles. Matter of fact, there are advertisers in the magazine who insure specialty vehicles for very reasonable amounts. I also try pretty hard to not hurt or kill somebody while driving in parades or cars and coffee type get togethers, but that's just me.

Haven't you guys been to a rally race before? There are lots of hoopties, barely-legal cars, etc. and they all somehow manage to get insurance AND licensing then drive on the road as part of the race. It's not that hard. Really! I've given my opinion, I'll leave it be at this point. Just a suggestion from a guy who calls himself AmeriCAN instead of AmeriCAN'T.

Bryce

I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if I repeat something that's already been said. Also, I haven't read the Challenge rules in a few year, but last time I read them, the cars had to be "road worthy", NOT street legal. IIRC, the main reason for choosing that wording was because laws varied so much state to state, and some states could have a serious competitive advantage if they all had to be tagged or technically street legal. I like the rule, as it keeps people from doing LeMons style hackery, and also selfishly because I generally drive my challenge car on the street, so I wouldn't do anything so extreme that I couldn't anyway.

So my $.02. IF you're going to keep the rule, keep the wording "Road Worthy", not street legal. Also, I like the rule as it is (or was?) because it keeps the cars looking like cars, and will keep them from looking too out of reach to the average reader. If they start competing with nascar style body panels with fake lights and what-not, a lot of people are going to give up before even trying.

I don't think that requiring cars to have paperwork to let them legally drive on the street is a great idea. That almost certainly will cut down on participation, and WILL pretty much throw out the possibility of including Locosts/Kit Cars again. (Or at least delay their appearance.)

+1 to "Road Worthy" wording.

Not street-legal. Unless you want to restrict cars to one of the "Street" autocross classes, which IMO wouldn't help generate good editorial content.

Production-based(add kit-cars to the mix), frame/unibody and body mostly intact, keep the allowance for OE brake components(include wheel bearings too?), and let everything else fly.

Hmm, maybe instead of bonus points for oddballs and starwars themes, any vehicle who legally completes the "hangover tour" (coffee shop) gets a bump.

There must be parades for UF stuff, would it be that difficult to arrange a local LEO escort, especially if it helped any insurance snafus? Just spitballin..

I like road "worthy" challenge cars but wouldn't want to dissuade anyone from coming if they went the more expressly racecar route..

Or just give a bonus point to whomever actually drove their Challenge car to the event from the furthest distance.