$2014 Challenge question: street-legal or not?

Well put. I agree with everything you said. Specifically, though, I want to address this

Mitchell wrote: I have always seen the Challenge to be more Carnival, less competition, so any rule that excludes people from participating seems to contradict the spirit of the event. All street legal cars are already welcome to join the event, whereas requiring a plate excludes a lot of others from participating. If you go to a drag strip test and tune, there will be street-driven vehicles, and there will be dedicated racers. If you go to an AutoX, there will be street-driven cars, and there will be dedicated racers. The Challenge is about racing on a budget. In many ways, circumventing registration makes racing more budget-friendly.

This is my feeling as well. I haven't competed (yet) but I've been to the last few, and have to say that I agree. I'm much more interested in the creativity and the craftsmanship of the cars, the craziness of the contours presentations, and the fun attitude, than I am with the actual racing.

What about having a True Street class like the drag race guys do? Cars in that class have to complete a 30 mile drive on surface streets before making back-to-back passes down the strip.

John Huber's turbo four-cylinder Fox body is a great example.

Mitchell wrote: In many ways, circumventing registration makes racing more budget-friendly.

You price out a truck, trailer, and fuel lately? My experience is that it is WAY cheaper to register and drive a car to the races than to tow it.

Like poopy, I'm not a fan of changing rules unless it's required to meet the goals of the event (GRM's editorial goals). There are currently rules about lights, wipers, horns, etc. that aren't enforced and only serve to keep the honest people honest. My thought was that if you just say the event includes driving from the hotel to the track and back...then you ditch the currently unenforced rules AND (I think) get an improved twist on the editorial.

Here's another idea, considering how many people think the "street legal" part is an extra challenge. Instead of the current "Star Wars" points, how about extra points for the cars that do the Parc Expose and are driveable on the street? That way there's a reward for those vehicles which are street legal and CAN drive without any shenanigans. One more bonus point for cars that drive and compete in all events on the same wheels and tires. IMO, that's what a budget racing enthusiast would do when racing in their own neck of the woods, and the $20xx is supposed to show what the budget racing enthusiast can accomplish. I don't like the idea of "bonus points" for making a car a real car, but I like it a lot more than Star Wars points. I feel like a real sucker for planning on bringing two cars on a 7000 mile road trip to compete for nerd points.

Bryce

Nashco wrote: how about extra points for the cars that do the Parc Expose and are driveable on the street? That way there's a reward for those vehicles which are street legal and CAN drive without any shenanigans. One more bonus point for cars that drive and compete in all events on the same wheels and tires. IMO, that's what a budget racing enthusiast would do when racing in their own neck of the woods, and the $20xx is supposed to show what the budget racing enthusiast can accomplish.

These seem reasonable

I personally think that "roadworthy in Florida" is preferable to "street legal", and that extra points should be awarded for the car actually being street legal (tagged and registered somewhere) and possibly another bonus if it is driven to the event. I like the idea of Parc Expose, imho if you can organize it with a police escort (or at least let them know/ask permission to drive some cars of questionable street legality a very limited distance from a coffee shop to the track) so that street legality isn't a requirement for Parc Expose I think that would be the best solution. No bonus points for "legally" (read: driving a street-legal, registered/plated car on the street) partaking in the drive from Parc Expose, since those points effectively would have already been awarded with the street-legality/street-driven bonus, but the police escort (or permission) would allow the non-street-legal cars to still participate

The question is are we building capable street cars or race cars? Pretty sure it is the latter. If that is the case, then there is no need for the car to be street legal. I have an example, bear with me it involves another publication.

Back 10 or so years ago, Hot Rod Magazine had an event call "Fastest Street Car Shootout." It involved taking "street legal" drag cars, making them drive 30 miles to Memphis Motorsports park, then racing to see who was the fastest. After a few years this evolved to a "street legal" but barely road worthy drag cars showing up. They were built to the purpose.

Eventually the staff figured out that the event wasn't truly representative of a street car anymore, and evolved the event into Drag Week. Multiple tracks lots of street driving (not interstate). The cars had to be street legal, road worthy, and road safe.

What you are seeing with challenge cars is the same thing. The cars are evolving around the rules. If the spirit of the event is to show street legal cars can be built and compete within the budget, then the rules need to evolve to make the street legal requirement have sustenance. If the spirit of the event is to show that you can build a track worthy and more importantly a track competitive car within the budget, then the rules need to evolve as such.

IMO the rules should be build a car within budget, no exemptions, it needs to pass a legit tech inspection, and be a competitive race car. If you show up with a death trap you'll be shown the door.

The Yugo is going to be tagged but only because Alabama doesn't give a E36 M3. I mean it will have lights but nothing else, no bumpers, no wipers, no heater, no sound deadening and it will get towed down. Personally I say road worthy or not shouldn't matter but mine will show up tags even if I would get pulled over the second it goes on the road.

Expanding from my comments in another thread, I think if you consistently want more entrants, a two class system may be needed. I agree the rules have gotten too complex.

Continuing rules: Keep the budget rules pretty much as is. Too many people will short-circuit safety if you don't. Getting rid of these rules would probably require more thorough safety checks, and that becomes a time and manpower issue.

Race Class:

Take the current rules, and ditch all the "roadworthy" requirements. Give up any pretense these are street cars. Ditch the "specials" class and allow these cars to compete for the overall win. No more requiring race cars to have turn signals/horns/headlights/etc, though IIRC a brake light may still be required, if I remember my NHRA rules correctly. Heck, keep the current revised rule allowing them to include a welded cage out of budget, but It would be nice if everyone was "encouraged" to track expenses on budget exempt items like cages, brakes, etc., so people could see the real cost of the build.

This would open up things a lot more to maybe some salvage cars people have been skipping over, and maybe bring out some really neat fab work on a tube frame build. In theory, mass-produced cars could eventually get pushed out, but I seriously doubt that would happen for a while. Probably not a lot of people wanting to build a one trick pony that might get clobbered in a mod class back home without putting more cash into it than the challenge allows.

Race-class cars should probably be able to pass an inspection based roughly on what mod class they'd be in in the SCCA, and any NHRA saftey rules, of course.

Enthusiast Class:

This class is for the getting new guys hooked, and maybe building something more radical in the future:

1. Car must be road-worthy (and safe) and have a current registration. IOW, lights, turn signals, horn, muffled exhaust that exits the bodywork behind the passenger compartment.

2. Must have a full interior (possible exceptions for hatch/trunk carpet, and some missing/broken interior trim). I envision this rule as being enforced by the concours judges. If they think you're breaking the spirit of the rule, you are simply bumped to the race class. No gutting the padding in rear sets, etc. Maybe allow for some interior customization as long as it doesn't look like they're just trying to gut it and drop weight. Allow non-stock seats, but again, let the judges decide intent (I know this is a big gray area). S2000 seats in a Civic, fine. Kirkey aluminum racing seat, uh...no. Probably should allow safely mounted harnesses, since they can usually be in the car in addition to a regular seatbelt.

3. Working factory heater, and if the car was so equipped, a working radio in the stock location. (If someone is so weight obsessed they pull 3 out of 4 factory speakers, thats fine, the other interior bits will weigh more anyway)

4. TW 200 or higher tires. Or whatever SCCA is going to for stock class in 2014. This allows the buyer to drive down on a set of tires they can compete on. If there will still be a "free" tire exception for a sponsor's brand, thats fine, as long as they are making a decent UHP summer tires. If there are no more "free" tires, this rule might need to be scrapped, since beaten r-comps tend to be cheaper (and easier to find) than decent used summer tires.

5. No cages/roll bars allowed. This is two-fold. First, they aren't safe in a street car. Second, they force competitors to try to balance power and handling better when they know a run below 12.50 (or 14.0 in a convertible) will be disallowed at the drags.

6. Some sort of "parade" drive required, to make sure the car can run for more than a minute or two at a time without breaking. This could even be done snaking through the overflow parking at the track if we want to keep it off public streets. Besides, slow drives do a great job of revealing inadequate cooling systems. Cars that fail this could get bumped to the race class.

7. And the most controversial, no (non-stock for that car)engine swaps. I'd even suggest No "radical" engine swaps instead, but I suspect that would just lead to a lot of B18B powered turbo civics and a lot of arguing over the definition of radical. If you want to put an F2T in an MX-6 that had it as a factory option in that generation (in the US or Canada), thats fine. No jumps in generations or vehicle models.

8. You can still trailer it to the challenge. Since you're abusing a cheap car over two days, you can't be sure it'll make the drive home.

If this ruleset was envisioned, judging by the events I've seen in the past, you'd probably see about a 50/50 split between classes, and the race class cars would take the overall win easily. And they should, as a general rule a lot more effort will be put into them. The idea is that new guys, (and some old guys, like me), could build a car we aren't afraid to drive 800 miles and go insane due to noise or other issues with a full on race car, race, and go home afterwards. Maybe some of theose new guys will be inspired to build a race class car.

In the race class, I think most cars would look like the sharp leading edge of challengers now. In enthusiast class, I'd expect a strong concentration of late 80's to late 90's compacts/subcompacts, with a few ponycars and sportscars thrown in.

As a matter of fact, I will make a not-so-bold statement. If a ruleset like this is implemented for 2014, and the apocolypse/hyperinflation/job loss/no vacation time/major health or family crisis/etc does not happen. I will be there in Fall 2014 with a Challenge car.

Eastside I like your Idea. I had posted this in the other other $2014 challenge Rules thread..

Nocones said: Require that upon registration the Vehicle be registered in 1 of the 3 following ways: Unlimited - No vehicle Rules, cars must simply pass a Tech inspection similar to that that SCCA A/D/E mod cars. Production - No Kit cars, no Homebuilts, Production based chassis must have windshield, lights, And dash Budget includes Safety exceptions Traditional - Production class cars whos budget includes ALL items on the car. Total expense less recoup must be no more than $2014 inclusive of safety items, tires. Award the Top 3 overall, Top 3 of each class and indicate in the Magazine results which class each car ran in. This would move the event a bit more like a multi class endurance race but would be interesting to see what cars shake out where

I also agree if the "specials" class where Eliminated and everyone ran heads up you would see the $1 Subaru 360 at the $2014 challenge running esentially as a SCCA Dmod car. Not becasue I think it woudl then win but because then I would be able to actually compete with the car built in a way that I could continue to use it. As the rules are now it's not possible to run it as a Challenge car becasue it will have to become "Tube framed"

In reply to nocones:

Thanks, it looks like you and I are on a similar wavelength. I still prefer just two classes, in order to simplify logistics at the challenge, and to make it easier for someone to decide which way their build will go.

As for the budget rules, I have no problem with selloffs in the "enthusiast" class, because, due to the rules, they'd be somewhat minimal compared to the race class. Sure, you could sell extra parts you got when you bought the car, parts off a parts car, or sell the AC compressor/condensor to a scrapper, but since you need the full interior and a "stock-ish" engine, there will simply be less parts to sell. This will also make it easier to transition the car to the "race" class later on, if you want.

Personally, no. If/when I am able to build a Challenge car there will be no way in hell it'll be street legal under the suburban PA rules (which differ greatly from rural PA rules) where I live. Could it be done? Sure, but it wouldn't be any fun.

All that said, I would likely try to build the car to some sort of SCCA or NASA class rules so the car could have some sort of a life after the Challenge. I have zero desire to build some sort of off-the-wall contraption that would serve no other purpose, although I respect the nut-cases that do and enjoy seeing the results (the Zamboni comes to mind).

As someone who daily drives their Challenge car... i'm not actually real psyched about separating street and race. My car wouldn't fit in that "Enthusiast Class" and would get bumped to "Race."

I don't really think that separating the event into two classes is really the answer. I'm more OK with letting outliers come and play without being eligible to win overall than i am with splitting a <40 car field ($2012) in half. Actually, not even evenly in half. Less than half the cars that showed last year would qualify for "Enthusiast Class."

Swank Force One wrote: I don't really think that separating the event into two classes is really the answer. I'm more OK with letting outliers come and play without being eligible to win overall than i am with splitting a <40 car field ($2012) in half. Actually, not even evenly in half. Less than half the cars that showed last year would qualify for "Enthusiast Class."

I'm hoping my idea would less "split" the current field, and more inspire additional competitors. IIRC, 2005 and 2006 had over 60 cars each, back when you didn't need anywhere near as radical of a car to be competitive.

To me, it comes down to two things. Getting people to show up, and generating editorial content for the magazine. Everybody loves to read about the insane fast machines that show up, but I also think that discourages a lot of people who don't have thousands of hours, several friends to be on a team, and more importanlty, are disinclined to show up if, in order to finish well, they think they need a truck/trailer, and will have a car that is near useless for the street. Under this setup, there would still be the radical builds everyone can read and dream about, but hopefully also plenty of more cars that make people say "I could do that"

eastsidemav wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: I don't really think that separating the event into two classes is really the answer. I'm more OK with letting outliers come and play without being eligible to win overall than i am with splitting a <40 car field ($2012) in half. Actually, not even evenly in half. Less than half the cars that showed last year would qualify for "Enthusiast Class."

I'm hoping my idea would less "split" the current field, and more inspire additional competitors. IIRC, 2005 and 2006 had over 60 cars each, back when you didn't need anywhere near as radical of a car to be competitive.

There wasn't a whole lot this past year that i would have called "radical," and most of what WAS radical didn't really fare that well.

I dunno. I don't view the Challenge as an opportunity to win another trophy, and i think that probably 90%+ of the competitors/hopefuls would agree with me. I really don't think there's any significant number of people that aren't coming to the Challenge just because they don't think they can win.

Really all that splitting does is adds another trophy. You're still going to have the guys that are only REALLY interested in winning overall if they're competitive, or you're going to have the rest of us that are just here for a good time.

If i was worried about winning, i wouldn't show up. This wouldn't change with a split in classes, because i'm not winning that, either. I'm not the driver for it, i don't have the car for it, and i'm not building another car anytime soon.

Build a street car anyways! I'll have an 88 MX6 GT later this summer that i'll be wanting to get rid of for CHEAP.

Swank Force One wrote: Build a street car anyways! I'll have an 88 MX6 GT later this summer that i'll be wanting to get rid of for CHEAP.

I edited my post above before I saw you'd replied, I hope my explanation is a bit better now. I might be tempted to build something like that, but I have a bit too competitive of a streak, and as I posted in the other thread, I'm a little tired of being a backmarker. I'm trying to tame my tendency to bite off more than I can chew.

As for your MX-6, it sounds like fun, and I have been thinking a turbo car someday. Just not sure it fits with all the other stuff I've been up to lately, between rallycrossing and two wheelers :)

I don't see the street car thing being that big of a deal.

Our LeMons car is street legal.

seats, belts, wipers, windshield squirter, headlights, tail lights, defroster, windshield.

Which of these, if removed, actually gives you a competitive advantage?

If a one size fits all type rule, such as: street legal or Road worthy doesn't fit, tell people exaclty what it means.

This means the rule will say: You have to have fully functioning head and tail lights. Must have stock windshield, etc. Let people interpret the rules how they see fit from there.

Rob R.

One other way to handle it would be to not so much create a whole different 'class' but to add an additional set of awards for the 'street legal' cars- something along the lines of awards/trophies 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in overall points for vehicles driven to the event. This would allow more radical work on the cars as well as things like gutting the interior and the likes but would also give the 'enthusiast'-type competitors, which I would definitely put myself into.

I know without a doubt that my El Camino will finish no better than mid-pack either this year or next (whenever I finally get it finished up ) because it's being built with not only the Challenge in mind but also being able to use and drive as a fairly normal ute. And I'm fine with the fact that it won't be blowing anything away on the course or strip- but I won't deny it would be nice to see specifically how it stacks up against similarly-minded builds: mere mortals like myself who lack the facilities, skills, or resources (or dedication) to build scrapyard supercars and who view the Challenge as a fun excuse to do more with a car than just drive it around normally.

Swank Force One wrote: I'm more OK with letting outliers come and play without being eligible to win overall than i am with splitting a <40 car field ($2012) in half.

And this is the problem. I have 0 desire to build a car that the only place it can play competitvely is the Challenge. I'm glad lots of people are willing to do that but for me this can't be a 1 event car. I'd like it to be competitive in SCCA D/Emod racing and the limitations the Challenge places on those rule sets are not ones I'm willing to make (Windows, lights, "street legal" OEM chassis components). I also will not come to the challenge just to get a participation medal. I'd happily come compete and get 25th in my $20XX Dmod car but I have no interest in driving 19 hours to not be allowed to be included in the overall results.

This is what limits me from participating. It does not make me like the Challenge less however it makes it so that I will not be participating in it. If the overall decision is to continue to run "race" cars as a special class that is fine I just won't plan a build I will just build my Dmod car. If the rules are changed I will make it a priority to put the $2014 challenge on my callender and bust my ass to make it. I will lose it will be spectacular but when I open the magazine there in the results list I will see a picture of my Subaru 360.

Sure maybe it's sematics and If my overall score where enough to get say 9th I'd still have went fast enough to be 9th however someone else will have actually been 9th and I would have simply gotten to participate.

nocones wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: I'm more OK with letting outliers come and play without being eligible to win overall than i am with splitting a <40 car field ($2012) in half.

And this is the problem. I have 0 desire to build a car that the only place it can play competitvely is the Challenge. I'm glad lots of people are willing to do that but for me this can't be a 1 event car. I'd like it to be competitive in SCCA D/Emod racing and the limitations the Challenge places on those rule sets are not ones I'm willing to make (Windows, lights, "street legal" OEM chassis components). I also will not come to the challenge just to get a participation medal. I'd happily come compete and get 25th in my $20XX Dmod car but I have no interest in driving 19 hours to not be allowed to be included in the overall results. This is what limits me from participating. It does not make me like the Challenge less however it makes it so that I will not be participating in it. If the overall decision is to continue to run "race" cars as a special class that is fine I just won't plan a build I will just build my Dmod car. If the rules are changed I will make it a priority to put the $2014 challenge on my callender and bust my ass to make it. I will lose it will be spectacular but when I open the magazine there in the results list I will see a picture of my Subaru 360. Sure maybe it's sematics and If my overall score where enough to get say 9th I'd still have went fast enough to be 9th however someone else will have actually been 9th and I would have simply gotten to participate.

That's why i'm all for removing the "kit car" clause and just let anything in.

If the whole thing had been up to me in the beginning, i would have mandated "road worthy" vehicles, but it's come too far to alienate the master fabricators, and there isn't enough of an even split between race and street cars to make that split anything but another participation award.

While still possibly another Participation Award, i do like the idea of recognizing the highest finisher(s) that actually drove their cars to the event. It won't necessarily mean that what they drove is a true street car, but it might point out who is the zaniest dude to show up.

Yes but d/e mod cars are not road worthy. They are race cars. They don't posses things required in any state to be street legal.

nocones wrote: Yes but d/e mod cars are not road worthy. They are race cars. They don't posses things required in any state to be street legal.

Again, which is why i'd like to see them allowed to compete with the rest of us.

That wasn't entirely clear in your posts. Kit cars and tube framed Race cars are different things but I see now you are saying just allow anything that looks like a real car to race.

eastsidemav wrote: As for your MX-6, it sounds like fun, and I have been thinking a turbo car someday. Just not sure it fits with all the other stuff I've been up to lately, between rallycrossing and two wheelers :)

Two things: First of all, turbo cars fit absolutely perfectly with rallycrossing, thankyouverymuch.

More to the point: Love the idea behind the "enthusiast" class, but I'd allow gutted interiors, or at least permit the removal of any interior bit from behind the front seats.

nocones wrote: That wasn't entirely clear in your posts. Kit cars and tube framed Race cars are different things but I see now you are saying just allow anything that looks like a real car to race.

I don't even care if it looks like a real car. I'm not convinced that building a car from scratch is a sure-fire way to win the Challenge in the first place.

Swank Force One wrote: While still possibly another Participation Award, i do like the idea of recognizing the highest finisher(s) that actually drove their cars to the event. It won't necessarily mean that what they drove is a true street car, but it might point out who is the zaniest dude to show up.

That could be called the "Gainesville Resident Award" I'm pretty sure some out of towners are farther away from the track at the hotel than some of the locals who have shown up in the past