$2017 Challenge Rules and Date Announced

Andrew, I appreciate your insight.

If you'd like to know, A&M beat me because of seat time and power, not tires. Our tires were equal to theirs, or better. We had a much larger contact patch, and a stickier compound.

We had a major tuning issue, and ran the car without any live inputs from the sensors. We disconnected all inputs, and ran on the base map only.

Their driver had a lot of seat time in that car- multiple previous events. He made a Bonsai run as a last run (which is perfectly legit in AuotX), and pulled off a great run without any cones. I applaud him. Our driver had never been in the car running reasonably well before the third run that day. As the team leader, that's my fault. He did 3 back-to-backs, and did the best he could. We lead A&M before their last run.

The power level differences were easy to see. They had 10% more displacement and an excellent tune, plus running on E-85 which gave them more ability to boost. We posted nearly identical ET's, but they trapped at 14 mph faster than us. MUCH more power.

John Brown wrote: I really like tacos. Other than that I guess we see what October brings.

I vote captain Karl brings taco truck instead of car

alfadriver wrote: More a question of dreaming than anything actual. Previous years, the rules had a requirement for a windshield. I don't see that there anymore. Is that gone? And with the non-DOT tire rule in there, that appears that one could build a legal Prepared or Modified car (relative to the definition of what a car is, of course) and be allowed to run as long as it met NHRA specs as well. Is that a correct interpretation?

Yes, you are correct. Same in the previous rules (that's why we ran non-DOT legals).

Thanks to Paul, Andrew and Pat for helping to explain further what all the fuss is about when it comes to tires. I really never considered the angles and count on intelligent and thoughtful friends to make it all clear. Sadly, we do not have a wide source of input here so I will take it as a given that you do not speak for everyone...

First: I still consider it to be extremely poor form to announce a carefully considered set of rules and then immediately begin to revise them. I understand that no battle plan will survive the initial encounter with the enemy, but this isn't two opposed forces here and it certainly isn't the initial encounter.

Second: Only idiots and children should consider drag racing to be easy and completely safe. I will, once again, declare that night racing in Florida is an absolutely horrible idea for a multitude of reasons and the schedule should be changed to work better.

Third: I also consider it to be poor form to even mention that there are several "top finishing teams" who are "adversely affected". Everyone is affected by this and it really doesn't make any difference if one is first or last, their point of view is still valid. Some people tend to think that everything is always all about them, but they are wrong. Every entrant uses the same rules and has a valid stance.

patgizz wrote:

John Brown wrote: I really like tacos. Other than that I guess we see what October brings.

I vote captain Karl brings taco truck instead of car

Excellent idea! We certainly agree on some things...

tb wrote:

patgizz wrote:

John Brown wrote: I really like tacos. Other than that I guess we see what October brings.

I vote captain Karl brings taco truck instead of car

Excellent idea! We certainly agree on some things...

On the record i wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with rule wording or interpretation. I just tossed it out there that when i read "first four" i took it literally as first four, and put my first four purchased tires in as the free ones and charged my 2 drag tires that i bought a couple months later to the budget. I never even gave thought to the "i'm claiming my 4 most expensive tires" loophole that the rule creates. I'm generally overly conscious of the rules and don't know how to search for loopholes to exploit. This is why my car has passed multiple tech inspections outside the challenge.

Agreed that something shouldn't be done as a concession only to top finishing teams(I'm not even sure what i am at this point). I guess though, this discussion can benefit anyone who has budget room for an extra pair of tires if they wish now that the loophole has been exposed and retained.

Need to stop reading and get to work.

Edit: Four free tires. That's the rule. No hoops to jump through.

tb wrote: Third: I also consider it to be poor form to even mention that there are several "top finishing teams" who are "adversely affected". Everyone is affected by this and it really doesn't make any difference if one is first or last, their point of view is still valid. Some people tend to think that everything is always all about them, but they are wrong. Every entrant uses the same rules and has a valid stance.

Please re-read what I wrote. I stated that "a number of the top finishing teams...", and never suggested or implied that it did not effect all teams.

In reply to wheels777:

I am very critical of everyone, even myself. I never mean to be personally insulting to you and yours in particular and I apologize, again, if I have singled you out. I actually really like you guys but I know that I am a bit too grating for you to like me as much. Sorry, I am a bit of an shiny happy person but I think highly of you.

I will try to ease up, but please believe me when I say that it really is me and not you. There are some things I do not like about the way you act but it is nothing I dwell over. My honest thought is that you are so much nicer than most of my friends that you are a bit thin skinned when confronted with my particular brand of insensitive logic.

I understand what you wrote, but appreciate that you are clarifying the point. I really didn't mean to address that point to you as much as make it clear to all that those kind of distinctions are irrelevant and uncalled for.

I'm sorry. I wish you thought better of me because I really have no ill feelings towards you as a person. I didn't realize that you thought I had a personal vendetta against you but I don't at all. I realize that we probably misunderstand each other and I will make a concerted effort to be nicer to you since I completely take responsibility and own the fact that I am not as nice as I should be.

You have made me angry once, and I sometimes think you are being a bit silly or hard to handle. That in no way means I don't like you and I really like Paula, too (don't really know that kids that well, I imagine that they are a bit like you, though). I could write a book and never express myself perfectly (another fault I have), but I sincerely apologize for being a jerk.

One of my "dreams" was making an SCCA and Challenge eligible car.

The rules look like Prepared and Modified are the way to go, and based on SCCA, that decision is more Modified- as the weights are far lower.

IF (and that's a hypothetical if, not one that is back in reality) I was going to do a car, it would be either a DM Miata or Alfa. Would have to do some math- to see if boosted or not- as both could be down as far as 1380lb. DP would put the Alfa at 2000lb (my engine preference due to availability) or the Miata at 1888lb. And it seems as if most of the lightest challenge cars are under that anyway. It would take a lot more work to figure out if a CSP Miata or a FSP Alfa could be made lighter than that- but it does not seem it.

One reason I bring this up are the Modified builds that have graced our projects page, and a few others that might have gotten started. And IF one were to do it, and manage to find someone to take the car to the Nationals, do well (all keeping to the Challenge rules too), it would make a compelling story.

Considering that this used to be Auto-X magazine at one point.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Well I like the decisiveness here but I think this is but another bad call. It is very telling that you still include that caveat with your ruling...

I like you guys (honest!) but I disagree with some of your decisions.

In reply to alfadriver:

A quick look on the Miata forum shows that the lightest CSP car is still ~2000lb.

So, again, it looks like DM is the SCCA class to build to. Or EM with less restrictive boosting down to 1700lb.

tb wrote: I am very critical of everyone, even myself. I never mean to be personally insulting to you and yours in particular and I apologize, again, if I have singled you out. I actually really like you guys but I know that I am a bit too grating for you to like me as much. Sorry, I am a bit of an shiny happy person but I think highly of you. I will try to ease up, but please believe me when I say that it really is me and not you. There are some things I do not like about the way you act but it is nothing I dwell over. My honest thought is that you are so much nicer than most of my friends that you are a bit thin skinned when confronted with my particular brand of insensitive logic. I understand what you wrote, but appreciate that you are clarifying the point. I really didn't mean to address that point to you as much as make it clear to all that those kind of distinctions are irrelevant and uncalled for. I'm sorry. I wish you thought better of me because I really have no ill feelings towards you as a person. I didn't realize that you thought I had a personal vendetta against you but I don't at all. I realize that we probably misunderstand each other and I will make a concerted effort to be nicer to you since I completely take responsibility and own the fact that I am not as nice as I should be. You have made me angry once, and I sometimes think you are being a bit silly or hard to handle. That in no way means I don't like you and I really like Paula, too (don't really know that kids that well, I imagine that they are a bit like you, though). I could write a book and never express myself perfectly (another fault I have), but I sincerely apologize for being a jerk.

I am only thin skinned about 2 things: how people treat woman and how people treat people of different races. I pissed you off when you breached one of those fronts. You told me I did not need to be mean, I made it clear that will not tolerate any negative comments even though you implied it was in joking. You can call me thin skinned and assign these two areas of "thin-skinnedness" to me. But be very aware, I don't interpret any joking and/or tolerate anything said in a light way on these two subjects.

In reply to wheels777:

Fair enough, although I am not really sure what you are referencing specifically.

I'm not always good with people and such so I didn't realize I was being mean to you. I really never mean any major offense. In the future, I will certainly try to behave better (toward everyone, it just happens that you are giving me a needed prompt). I'm sorry.

Personal stuff in a public forum = inappropriate.

SVreX wrote: Personal stuff in a public forum = inappropriate.

True, sorry. I could make excuses but I wont.

I texted Andrew and we will keep it private.

I really am trying so I appreciate you helping by pointing this out, Paul.

Okay, the wording has been updated to reinforce that the $2017 event will be run with the tire rule as it was in $2016, with the ambiguity removed.

Four free tires. Use them however you'd like.

Not to derail this positive turn I propose a specific rules committee to help distribute the stress for these situations.

Proposal post

Tom Suddard wrote: Okay, the wording has been updated to reinforce that the $2017 event will be run with the tire rule as it was in $2016, with the ambiguity removed. Four free tires. Use them however you'd like.

Thank you. See you in May.... and October.

I want to thank GRM also and maybe explain why I'm a shiny happy person about some things.

I don't remember when I first started reading about the Challenge but I know it was early. I was probably still in my late 20s and I remember seeing all of these wonderful creations that did amazing things and it blew my mind that people were building them in their backyards.

Every year I would go over the rules and do entire builds in my mind in order to just show up and compete with these mythical beings.

In July of 2015 I happened upon a cheap Miata on CL. I knew that I'd regret not buying it for the Challenge. Even then I wasn't totally aware of how much the Challenge had affected me. It hit me when I showed the Miata to my son and the first thing he said was "We should run this in the Challenge!". I asked him how he knew about the Challenge and he said that I talked about it all the time.

It was amazing to run that first year. To find out that these cheap SOBs were just like me except they built cooler and faster cars. Then this year to come back and even win an award. And now I have a rule named after me? I wish I had started years ago ...

Anyway thanks for reaffirming that even cheap bastards like me can have fun with cars.

I too remember reading about the original $1,500 Challenge along with all the years that followed and thinking, "some day."

In 2012 Aussie Steve convinced me to join as crew returning again as crew in 2013.
In 2014 I campaigned my own car for the first time followed by 2015 & 2016. I see no reason to stop but as I have told many people, "I wish I had started sooner!"

I too figured it was out of my reach and out of my skill set. The best advice I can give to anyone about the event is, "GO". Weather that is as a spectator, team mate or competitor. It is not until you are there that you understand the event.

Stampie wrote: I want to thank GRM also and maybe explain why I'm a shiny happy person about some things. I don't remember when I first started reading about the Challenge but I know it was early. I was probably still in my late 20s and I remember seeing all of these wonderful creations that did amazing things and it blew my mind that people were building them in their backyards. Every year I would go over the rules and do entire builds in my mind in order to just show up and compete with these mythical beings. In July of 2015 I happened upon a cheap Miata on CL. I knew that I'd regret not buying it for the Challenge. Even then I wasn't totally aware of how much the Challenge had affected me. It hit me when I showed the Miata to my son and the first thing he said was "We should run this in the Challenge!". I asked him how he knew about the Challenge and he said that I talked about it all the time. It was amazing to run that first year. To find out that these cheap SOBs were just like me except they built cooler and faster cars. Then this year to come back and even win an award. And now I have a rule named after me? I wish I had started years ago ... Anyway thanks for reaffirming that even cheap bastards like me can have fun with cars.

Thank you for your service to our country and for joining the event. You and your son (more so your son) are a great addition...

wheels777 wrote:

Stampie wrote: I want to thank GRM also and maybe explain why I'm a shiny happy person about some things. I don't remember when I first started reading about the Challenge but I know it was early. I was probably still in my late 20s and I remember seeing all of these wonderful creations that did amazing things and it blew my mind that people were building them in their backyards. Every year I would go over the rules and do entire builds in my mind in order to just show up and compete with these mythical beings. In July of 2015 I happened upon a cheap Miata on CL. I knew that I'd regret not buying it for the Challenge. Even then I wasn't totally aware of how much the Challenge had affected me. It hit me when I showed the Miata to my son and the first thing he said was "We should run this in the Challenge!". I asked him how he knew about the Challenge and he said that I talked about it all the time. It was amazing to run that first year. To find out that these cheap SOBs were just like me except they built cooler and faster cars. Then this year to come back and even win an award. And now I have a rule named after me? I wish I had started years ago ... Anyway thanks for reaffirming that even cheap bastards like me can have fun with cars.

Thank you for your service to our country and for joining the event. You and your son (more so your son) are a great

"Here Stampie, let me deliver a compliment with the back of my hand "

In reply to wheels777:

Thanks I think ...

JohnRW1621 wrote: I too remember reading about the original $1,500 Challenge along with all the years that followed and thinking, "some day." I too figured it was out of my reach and out of my skill set. The best advice I can give to anyone about the event is, "GO". Weather that is as a spectator, team mate or competitor. It is not until you are there that you understand the event.

This... So much this.