22RE + T

I've been recruited (some might say "drafted") by a buddy of mine who has a rebuild shop that specializes in Toyota engines. We want to start selling drop in, plug and play 22RE turbo engines. Probably not a bad idea, sounds like a lot of fun to me. So I've put a preliminary list together, and I'd like GRM's input.

So here's what I've got:

• 22RE rebuilt long block w/ low CR pistons (maybe 8:1)
• Long tube exhaust manifold.
• Steel log style intake manifold. Maybe larger throttle body.
• Garrett T3-45 or Mitsubishi 15g, probably water cooled.
• Megasquirt-II or Microsquirt (need to investigate further, I'm not well versed in MS).
• Injectors.
• Labeled, scratch built wiring harness.
• Intercooler and charge piping, fittings, etc.
• Oil cooler assembly.
• GM coil packs and bracket, etc. (Need to research and find out what guys are doing for triggers.

And that would basically be your package, that would arrive on a pallet or whatever. So what does GRM think? Are there any blatant missteps that have slipped past me? Anything obvious that I've forgotten? Would this be "cool?"

We're kind of torn on what turbo to use. We can cut the flanges, so that doesn't matter. The T3 is kind of the Andrew Jackson of turbos, but I'm really leaning toward the 15g.

For that application, should you upgrade the head gasket and/or bolts? The water and/or oil pump(s)?

Stealthtercel wrote: For that application, should you upgrade the head gasket and/or bolts? The water and/or oil pump(s)?

Yes and yes on the HG and bolts. Probably MLS or maybe even copper HG and ARP studs. I think the water pump is fine, maybe the oil pump too. I'll have to check part numbers and see if the original 22RET came with an upgraded oil pump.

Map sensor if using a microsquirt. I'm assuming the 22re doesn't use one

icaneat50eggs wrote: Map sensor if using a microsquirt. I'm assuming the 22re doesn't use one

Noted. Any opinion on Microsquirt Vs MS2?

For the turbo, what size does the 22R-TE factory engine use? The factory turbo was the weak link so a slightly larger turbo should be just right.
here is the general specs of the factory te
Engine Type:22R-TE
Valves/cylinder:2
Years manufactured:1984-1988
Stock HP:135hp@4800 RPM
Torque:173 ft pounds @ 2800 RPM
Bore:3.62 inches
Stroke:3.50 inches
Stock compression ratio*:variously reported as either 7.8:1 or 7.5:1
Stock boost:variously reported as 6 psi to 7.5 psi
Stock injector flow rate:290 cc/minute

the main difference is the heads and some oil passages that are present in the standard block just not drilled.

They came with the CT20, I think. I always thought their weak link was the complete lack of an intercooler. haha.

I know the 15g will move some air. Common upgrade for 13c's and T3's amongst Volvo-ers. Supposedly will move air like a T3, but with a quicker spool. Pretty commonly available too.

MrChaos wrote: For the turbo, what size does the 22R-TE factory engine use? The factory turbo was the weak link so a slightly larger turbo should be just right. here is the general specs of the factory te Engine Type:22R-TE Valves/cylinder:2 Years manufactured:1984-1988 Stock HP:135hp@4800 RPM Torque:173 ft pounds @ 2800 RPM Bore:3.62 inches Stroke:3.50 inches Stock compression ratio*:variously reported as either 7.8:1 or 7.5:1 Stock boost:variously reported as 6 psi to 7.5 psi Stock injector flow rate:290 cc/minute the main difference is the heads and some oil passages that are present in the standard block just not drilled.

The turbo engines did use a high-volume oil pump.

Probably still available.

Shawn

If at all possible, tailor the engines hp for cars and torque for trucks. 22REs are preferred to 3.0s on the 4X4 site I visit.

Appleseed wrote: If at all possible, tailor the engines hp for cars and torque for trucks. 22REs are preferred to 3.0s on the 4X4 site I visit.

I feel that with a 22r, it's a torque-fest no matter what.

I just hope there's actually a market for what we've cooked up above.

There are a few other places around that specialize in 22re's (I'm sure you know this). These guys impress me.

http://www.22reperformance.com

Aren't the timing chains weak links on these motors? How about double row timing chains? Man, one of these would be awesome in an old 80's Celica!

sethmeister4 wrote: There are a few other places around that specialize in 22re's (I'm sure you know this). These guys impress me. http://www.22reperformance.com Aren't the timing chains weak links on these motors? How about double row timing chains? Man, one of these would be awesome in an old 80's Celica!

The timing chains aren't really weak, it's the plastic guides. And still, they last quite a long time (Toyota guys bitch I guess because they don't last as long as the older set ups). IIRC, early 22r's had double row chains and metal guides.

There are quite a few guys out there specializing in 22R's. I don't see many (or any) really going for the turbo market. I'm not sure why, really. Any great engine is better with a turbo, right?

Had a thought: Instead of running a sandwich plate for the oil cooler, why not run right out of the turbo return. Hot ass oil comes out of the turbo, into the cooler, and then to the oil pan. Is there a reason companies don't build them this way (at least what I've seen)? I can't be the first guy to think of this.

Cost to benefit ratio? Most guys in this budget arena would probably brew their own to save the bucks. That's just my first guess. I've seen some Toyota motorhomes that have piqued my interest, but only if the 20R was swapped for a nice 22RE-T.

In reply to RoughandReady:

You can't put ANY restriction into the drain line or you will force oil past the turbo seals and out the exhaust.

Ask me how I know.

In reply to RoughandReady:

Had a thought: Instead of running a sandwich plate for the oil cooler, why not run right out of the turbo return. Hot ass oil comes out of the turbo, into the cooler, and then to the oil pan. Is there a reason companies don't build them this way (at least what I've seen)? I can't be the first guy to think of this

The oil return is not supposed to be under pressure. The return needs to be unobstructed or the oil will force it's way out the seals. Not much oil flows through the turbo anyway.

^And now I know.

I might also consider a drop in fuel pump solution, as i don't believe the stock unit will keep up. I'd also skip the custom intake manifold as well, mostly due to cost, but partially due to lack of need. what are you looking for in specific HP output for an 'as delivered' 22RE turbo? that number would help some. maybe make the intake manifold/TB optional?

if your looking for 250-270, there's ZERO need to replace the intake. i also wouldn't bother with a tubular manifold at those HP levels. too many manifold failures with them, and I've seen some of the best SS manifolds built by pros i respect fail in pretty short order. id stay with good cast iron pipe fittings and make a log style header for the turbo, and set it up, if possible, to hook to factory exhaust, or at least factory location.

now, if your 'as delivered' goals are more like 350-375 HP, then the tubular manifold, and plenum-and-runner intake become much more necessary if you want to keep boost pressure under 30. it also means no current market exhaust will handle the air flow, and you'll need to consider a kit for that as well.

try and keep it simple, if possible. lets assume my Toyota truck/car already had upgraded exhaust, but in the stock location. if your turbo motor bolted up to stock location setup, this means your turbo kit/motor would 'drop in' with little hassle. and with the factory intake/TB, you don't mess with cruise/throttle control. if your selling a delivered kit, you want ease of installation. if people want a project, they will just DIY it. you want this to be doable in a day with two guys and a case of beer.

my real advice here would be to make and sell parts to DIY this, as i believe you will get more business. offer the kit if you want to, but the moneys is in the parts. i have read through to completion no less than 400 turbo car builds over on turboford dot org for the last ten years, 100 more on nato dot org, and done 4 myself, in progress of #5, and i can tell you the ratio here for 'home brew' vs. 'drop in' is about 40:1. very few people buy a complete engine, turbo and all, and drop in and go. turbo selection is very dependent on engine specs, vehicle weight, transmission, intended use, supporting mods etc etc, it gets complicated fast. what works for one car is useless in another and so on. and the same goes for almost every part in an engine build.

anyways, if you'd like to chat, i can put you in contact with enough small shops and home DIY suppliers of custom parts to get you all the information you'll ever need.

and if i have only one piece of advice, ONE thing if you ignore everything else ive said, PLEASE heed this warning:

DON'T SELL A PART YOU HAVEN'T COMPLETED, AND DON'T GUARANTEE HP NUMBERS!

in all the 'dealings gone wrong' I've read about, and the three horrible wastes of money and time I have dealt with, 9 of 10 are a direct result of violating these two policy's.

feel free to email me.

-J0N

BTW, this guy does most of this out of a small shop in kansas:

http://www.stinger-performance.com/

-J0N

Few thoughts from reading your list.

Why bother with a long tube exhaust manifold for a turbo?

OEM intake manifold is a very good log already. It's pretty big and well designed internally. Replacing it with a steel one wouldn't improve anything that I can think of.

GM coil packs. Only if you're really running high pressures and blowing out spark. Otherwise the oem ignition did a perfectly good job.

For the coil packs/trigger, the idea is on-the-fly laptop or smart phone timing adjustments.

I figured a long tube offers room to grow. Part of the reason I'm leaning toward the 15g turbo. These would be delivered running only 10 psi.

Jmthunderbirdturbo, your comment gives me a long to chew on. I know there's a lot more DIYers than guys who buy drop ins. I'm sure a company like LC engineering does a lot more business in parts than they do with their $7k performance engines. I'm not sure if the parts I'm trying to assemble have the same sort of value piecemeal. Maybe in a kit or several kits.

Hmmm hmmm ideas. When we first started toying around with this idea, something we thought of was an adapter kit that would let you use an OEM turbo exhaust manifold from another model (something pretty common). The idea was that you could pick up the adapter kit for $100 or so and a stock turbo manifold for $100 or so and that would be the solution to very expensive turbo manifolds for 22R's. (I think the cheapest I ever found was ~300 for an Ebay/China manifold, which don't seem to be available anymore).

The problem with this idea is that the 22R doesn't have equidistant exhaust ports, and it seems that your average "pick it up at a junkyard" exhaust manifold does.

I was hoping to adapt one of these, since they're cheap, everywhere, compact, and not a bad design. But I think making the ports match up would kind of defeat the purpose.

A Mercedes 5 cylinder diesel has 4 of it's ports arranged similarly to the 22R, but you'd still have to cut off the 5th runner and weld a plate on or something. It also doesn't have real bolt holes, which is kind of annoying. Arrangement might be difficult since the exhaust is on the opposite side for a Toyota. The turbo would either sit really far back or, if you flipped the manifold, far forward and kind of high.

Yet another option might be an adapter for the port/bolt spacing of a Nissan Ka24e. While a cheap OWM turbo manifold isn't available. The price of a lot of aftermarket manifolds is pretty low, I guess because drifto. The cast iron manifold below runs $175-225 on various websites. +$100 for an adapter kit still puts one below the cost of the build-your-own box-of-tubes turbo manifolds offered by some companies.

I would also like to say that, at this point, this thread is a whole lot of spit balling/brain storming. All custom this or that is not really a great solution for your average guy. I would like to find solutions to problems that will actually help out the guy that is DIYing because he can't afford to go with something drop-in (aka most of us).

22R and 22RE have different heads, with different port shapes. Don't get excessively cavalier on the distinction, less it lead to tears somewhere down the road.

Blocks are different too.

FT, I think the 22R and RE have the same heads and blocks. I have one of each here, and put a new head from Brazil or Argentina on my 22R motor with a 22RE intake manifold and the Thorley header I had on the 22R head. When I ordered the head, there was no "is that a R or RE" question. Just a 22R head. Ports are the same (R v. RE.) The 20R and 22R/RE blocks and heads are different, with the 20R ports being round (or rounder) and flowing better, plus the 20R has a double row timing chain.

foxtrapper wrote: 22R and 22RE have different heads, with different port shapes. Don't get excessively cavalier on the distinction, less it lead to tears somewhere down the road. Blocks are different too.

Kind of. I don't think the E has much to do with it. I believe a 22R made 85 and later is the same as a 22RE 85 and later. Early, mythical 22RE's would be the same as an early 22R. I could be wrong. I know our late carbed 22R is the same as a 22RE (at least at first glance of the head/ports). If all 22R's and 22RE's had very difference ports/heads, I don't think EFI swaps would be so popular.

I would focus on the 85-95 engine. I think there's just more of them out there. Though I think that an adapter for an early 22R would work for a 20R.

Oh that's right, I'm thinking of the earlier 22R. Sorry, my mistake.