4 seaters: best at handling AND comfort/ride quality

Chris_V wrote: They share way more than the engines. Basically it's only a slight size difference between the cars.

Well, then there are undoubtedly issues with the exhaust catalysts on the E38 V8 then unless there is a difference in the tuning, because they die all the time on the E39 V8.

Chris_V wrote: We're a DIY board here, so doing DIY stuff on cars should be assumed and there's nothing difficult or expensive about the E38/E39.

I don't assume everyone is going to DIY on the board here, there are some that just don't have the time to do it and some that just aren't inclined to do it. Also, I disagree that there is nothing difficult about working on the BMW 540. There are some jobs that are way more difficult on it than on other cars. Valve cover gasket, valley pan gasket, those are all time consuming projects on the BMW, if not expensive to do. People should be aware that they need probably two days of solid work as a shade tree mechanic to redo the valve cover gaskets.

Like I said, a Miata is easy to work on across the board, the BMW certainly isn't terrible, but there are definitely areas that require a lot more work than your average car.

jv8 wrote:

Harvey wrote: Seriously, RX-8.

You have me researching. First thing I stumbled across was a reasonably priced LS V8 conversion kit... now that seems like the 4 seat answer...

The rotary is a pretty decent engine overall, though obviously it has its issues. The car loves to rev and makes plenty of power once it gets going, but it has no low end torque so if you're just driving it around town it's not very amusing, but once you wind it out everything is good. The chassis and handling setup out of the box is terrific. It's a car that wants to be driven at the limit.

I wouldn't want to drive one every day again mainly because it's not a very good car in stop and go traffic because of the aforementioned lack of low end torque. The gas mileage issue is another thing, but if you buy one you should be aware that you probably won't do better than 20mpg at best, though some claim they get 25mpg out of it I never saw that ever in my most conservative driving.

Harvey wrote: I don't assume everyone is going to DIY on the board here, there are some that just don't have the time to do it and some that just aren't inclined to do it. Also, I disagree that there is nothing difficult about working on the BMW 540. There are some jobs that are way more difficult on it than on other cars. Valve cover gasket, valley pan gasket, those are all time consuming projects on the BMW, if not expensive to do. People should be aware that they need probably two days of solid work as a shade tree mechanic to redo the valve cover gaskets.

I've done them, it takes an afternoon to do right. And then you're good for another 10 years, so really it's a moot point. The few big jobs are not regular occurances, so bitching that they might take a weekend is silly. IF you get one at 100k miles and you don't know that it's been done, budget a weekend to do the valve cover gaskets, valley pan, and timing chain guides. You'll do all the gaskets and all the seals and you'll be done with the big jobs for another 100k miles. It's not that hard (many people who are not DIY specialists have done it in a weekend).

As for smaller jobs, window regulators on one are no more difficult than the regulators on my Suburban (which I did in a half hour), and you can get them with lifetime warranty from FCP Euro. But neither of my E38s have needed them in over 150k miles each. I did them on a 200k mile E36 and it was easy.

The problem I have is that people like you who had one bad expereince tend to act like all you're going to do if ANYone buys ANY of these cars is spend every weekend doing some big job and never get to drive the cars. My last one, in 5 years of ownership, got two weekends under the knife. Most of them that I know of are the same way, except for people modding them, which often takes up a bunch of time and extra money.

Yes, if you buy a $1000-1500 version with no records, you're probably going to spend too much money and time to make it perfect, but the real sweet spot is buying one with about 100k miles and a set of records for about $5k and then NOT making it "perfect," just a good, solid driver. And then drive it for 5-10 years with just regular normal maintenance like you'd do for any car.

Chris_V wrote:

joekitch wrote:

Harvey wrote: E39 540i, unreliable as hell, fast, fun. Get the six cylinder version if you don't want it to blow up in various ways.

Drives like a much smaller car and gets smaller around you the faster you go.

Hah, that's more room than my crown vic.

Chris_V wrote:

Harvey wrote: I don't assume everyone is going to DIY on the board here, there are some that just don't have the time to do it and some that just aren't inclined to do it. Also, I disagree that there is nothing difficult about working on the BMW 540. There are some jobs that are way more difficult on it than on other cars. Valve cover gasket, valley pan gasket, those are all time consuming projects on the BMW, if not expensive to do. People should be aware that they need probably two days of solid work as a shade tree mechanic to redo the valve cover gaskets.

I've done them, it takes an afternoon to do right. And then you're good for another 10 years, so really it's a moot point. The few big jobs are not regular occurances, so bitching that they might take a weekend is silly. IF you get one at 100k miles and you don't know that it's been done, budget a weekend to do the valve cover gaskets, valley pan, and timing chain guides. You'll do all the gaskets and all the seals and you'll be done with the big jobs for another 100k miles. It's not that hard (many people who are not DIY specialists have done it in a weekend). As for smaller jobs, window regulators on one are no more difficult than the regulators on my Suburban (which I did in a half hour), and you can get them with lifetime warranty from FCP Euro. But neither of my E38s have needed them in over 150k miles each. I did them on a 200k mile E36 and it was easy. The problem I have is that people like you who had one bad expereince tend to act like all you're going to do if ANYone buys ANY of these cars is spend every weekend doing some big job and never get to drive the cars. My last one, in 5 years of ownership, got two weekends under the knife. Most of them that I know of are the same way, except for people modding them, which often takes up a bunch of time and extra money. Yes, if you buy a $1000-1500 version with no records, you're probably going to spend too much money and time to make it perfect, but the real sweet spot is buying one with about 100k miles and a set of records for about $5k and then NOT making it "perfect," just a good, solid driver. And then drive it for 5-10 years with just regular normal maintenance like you'd do for any car.

Listen man, whatever. I don't know what your hard on is for going over this over and over again. The gaskets went every 30k miles when I had mine, but I guess they are upgraded now. My experience doesn't invalidate yours anymore than yours invalidates mine. Mine is on the crappy side of the spectrum admittedly and yours is on the apparently terrific side. I'm just as annoyed with people like you that blow sunshine everywhere about how wonderful these things are, so let's agree to disagree at this point. People can judge for themselves what they feel like dealing with.

In reply to jv8: Your original post mentioned you wanted awesome handling; If you don't want to modify your car, most FWD cars are eliminated. Also, if your 15 year old is taller than average, he/she won't be that comfortable in hatchbacks, especially in a year or two. I will assume that the Fiesta and Focus ST will fit your handling requirements, along with the new GTI, but I'm not sure about back seat space. A FWD that can do it is the Jetta Sportwagen TDI with the 6-speed. You may need a bigger rear sway bar to increase the handling to match the more sporty options mentioned. Along with a Mazda 6, a Jetta Sportwagen will be relatively invisible to the cops when you're whipping it around corners.

Still think the 911 is an option.

In reply to yupididit: Not with two kids riding in the back, IMO.

My tall 11 and 9 year olds ride in the back. Granted, short trips and all that.

4 door E36 comes to mind, gotta have 4 doors for kids. If you like hatches, any of the new diesel BMWs, http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_123d.html

I just went through this exercise and bought an E46 330i ZHP 6MT. It has a shorter 3.43 3-clutch LSD final drive and is the best all-arounder I've ever owned. Just enough power, and still pulls ~25mpg. Three-ring binder full of receipts and a growing to-do list to prove that it is German. If you're used to the Stockholm syndrome that is eurotrash car ownership, no sweat. It's not a Japanese car.

I owned an IS300 back when they were new -- it did some things better and some things worse. Anemic (if buttery smooth) engine output for ~18mpg chief among them. I also spent some time with a G37 sedan, which was also great. I'm a Toyota fan, but the Nissan VQ engine is another league compared to the old 2JZ in the IS300.

That said, the 3-series is the brass ring for both of those sedans for a reason, but that's also for new-car performance parity. In top condition the 3 series is a better driver's car, but the ownership experience after 50 or 100k miles is much different. A ratty E46 likely won't drive as well as a ratty G37 or IS300. Standard German used-car rules apply: buy the nicest one with the biggest binder of receipts you can find.

BTW....the ZHP is not a special car according to this video, but I still bought one.

The ZHP is the closest E46 to the E36 M3/4/5 -- virtually identical in dimensions and performance. Wish they had made an E46 M3 sedan.