818 renderings?

Oh hell, the more I think about it, I would probably buy just the frame and put my own 7-esque body on it (by body, I mean nose cone, fenders, lights, and glass...call it a car and drive the tihs out of it).

dean1484 wrote: Is the thread still around that had all the design ideas drawings?

probably this one http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/factory-five-design-contest-thread/32412/page1/

[edit: I just browsed through that thread, and yes, it is the one with all the designs. I just noticed one that I like because it has an angry face with fangs that captures my criteria of silly/fun]

I argee with Olpro somewhat just not with everything he said and not with the way he said it.,We were all expecting a more up to date design..Of course RETRO is what FF in into ..I am sure there will be quite a few sold anyway..For me their latest reveal was a let down..

Mel

I don't see it as retro. I see it as... blunt. There's real clues to FFs design sense as it relates to their non-vintage creations when you compare the Mclaren to the GTM. The cars are simlarly sized and specified, but the Mclaren is sexy where the GTM is brutish. Where the GTM has slabs, the Mclaren has curves. That's not to say that the GTM or 818 are ugly. Far from it. But their designer strikes me as someone who has the skill to pen good broad strokes, but not to dial in satsisfying details. I'd be ecstatic to have an 818 in my driveway, but hope that the next generation of syling will be by someone with a more evolved design sense and capability. I'd suggest that it's an important step in FFs evolution from the top dog in a nitche market to one with broader influence.

In reply to kreb:

I see on the FFR 818 site some inputs, primarily from Kach22 and Vman7 that are great possibilities to improve that design. Not sure about how open they are to these suggestions but the car would really benefit from the new thinking.

Controversy and drama aside, it's a very meh looking sports car.

In reply to olpro:

I have to agree that if this is the final body design it's a real let down. When I first heard that GRM and FFR were combining forces to have a contest to design the body of an affordable mid-engine sports car I thought "That is the coolest thing EVER!"

It seems that since then the design aspect of this project has gone a bit down hill. There were so many amazing designs submitted, but I think a lot of people (myself included) thought the overall winner of the contest was a bit.. meh.

Now, this rendering seems to show that all that was tossed out the window in favor of a design that is an order of magnitude more meh.

I don't want to disrespect FFR. I think they have done a great job at turning around the entire kit car community and I think they manufacture excellent products. But I have to be honest, my enthusiasm and possible prospects for owning an 818 some day has been severely diminished. Hopefully some of the other posters are correct in saying that several bodies will be offered. Just my opinion.

For all those who were betrayed by the body, here's more video of the car being driven au naturel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN_jVWlSPmk

I'll have more pictures of it sitting beside a Miata soon.

My thoughts are that the body is what it is for a variety of real-world reasons that we don't need to know.

I really can't judge the body until I see one in the flesh. I am thinking that paint choice is going to make a big difference. Regardless, while not flashy, there is not too much to NOT like.With the godlike design talents that many have, we should shortly see much improved personal iterations.

But forget about the stupid piece of plastic. You guys are supposed to be car guys. Grassroots car guys at that. From what I can tell in the videos, this Car drives around cones like a dream.

I am also curious if a sisngle person on this board will ever buy one of these?

Hmmm, so being interested in form AND function doesn't make you a car guy? You can have a sports car that performs great but looks ugly and not too many folks are going to be interested. Just look at old Moslers.

The 818 body looks a little to much like: for my taste.

Sultan wrote: There will be future bodies. As Dave said many times it will be like a Swatch watch. Same frame and different bodies.

There's the deal. You gotta start somewhere and IMHO they have done a damn good job so far. If you compare this to other kit car offerings from the past such as the Maxton Rollerskate it's actually quite advanced.

Y'all can pick styling nits and get browbeaten by the styling experts all you want, but in the final analysis FF is going to have to sell a few of these before they will have the justification to put big $ into things like rollup windows etc. and 'recycling' the GTM nose is one way of holding those costs in line. Not to mention it gives a 'brand identification', i.e. it's very obvious the 818 and GTM share a common genesis. That's what all the OE manufacturers do.

Someone mentioned it may look much better in person (put me in the 'I like it in the pictures' camp) and I agree with that as well. Way back when I saw the pics Isuzu released of the Axiom and my initial thought was 'oh crap, that thing is FUGLY, it'll never sell'. Then I saw one in person, with the metallic anthracite paint etc and it was really sharp looking.

The one thing I wouldn't mind seeing: how about a sort of 'universal' chassis which could be used with a few different FWD powerplants? Like maybe Honda Accord, Toyota Celica/Camry, stuff like that? Not that there's anything wrong with the Subie stuff and I understand the 'single donor' concept, but maybe there's a market for that sort of thing. I'm thinking a more 'stripped' kit, like a body shell and frame, the end user supplies their own suspension etc bits?

Waaaaay too much possible variation there. The 818 uses as much as possible from the WRX. Make it more generic and you eventually end up with a Locost frame. And there's no way to build a successful business around that - you just end up making custom kits one after the other for very low prices and without recouping r&d.

Sultan, the promise of more (Swatch Watch) bodies in the future is pie-in-the-sky BS. They may actually think they can do this but the sad inability to properly develop ANY of the winning designs gives total lie to this idea. They couldn’t even manage to “productionize” these other better looking concepts and had to fall back on the in-house teams’ lame version. Developing designs to meet production demands and refined aesthetic standards is very much day to day business in the industry, assuming one has gone through a production program or twenty. FFR has NEVER done this kind of thing before and they are over their heads in the deep water. Don’t tell me that the GTM was this kind of effort, Dave has admitted that it was a GT40 replica which kinda became its own thing over time (probably because they didn’t know how to manage a design development program and partly because the Ford lawyers were on their case big time). As for corporate brand identification, Curmudgeon has a point but only if mediocrity is cool as a brand concept. There is NO cost savings in recycling the GTM front end by the way, although I don’t necessarily agree that that is what they have done.

I will admit that Curmudgeon is no doubt in the majority here, not me. Most car nuts care far more about performance than original styling. Alas, I am not in that camp and will never be…

In reply to Keith:

I can understand that. It's just wishful thinking on my part; perhaps a generic mid motor chassis which would accept, say, the common Miata suspension uprights and let our intrepid home builder finish his/her own engine mounts etc. That way FF doesn't have to build eleventy fourteen engine mount kits etc. and they widen their customer base a bit.

Let's just say that I would be quite interested in something like that, as opposed to a single donor car setup. And again I say there's nothing wrong with that; the success of the single donor FF5 Roadster says they know what they are doing.

And yes I am probably in the minority.

olpro wrote: Developing designs to meet production demands and refined aesthetic standards is very much day to day business in the industry, assuming one has gone through a production program or twenty.

olpro wrote: FFR has NEVER done this kind of thing before and they are over their heads in the deep water.

I think this pair of sentences says it all.

olpro wrote: Don’t tell me that the GTM was this kind of effort, Dave has admitted that it was a GT40 replica which kinda became its own thing over time (probably because they didn’t know how to manage a design development program and partly because the Ford lawyers were on their case big time).

Yep. It's sorta tough to use someone else's design when they have lawyers on you like white on rice. So they did what I think is an exemplary job considering the constraints.

olpro wrote: I will admit that Curmudgeon is no doubt in the majority here, not me. Most car nuts care far more about performance than original styling. Alas, I am not in that camp and will never be…

Styling is SUCH a subjective thing. For instance, everywhere I look people tell me what boners they get over a Mercedes SLK.

They see an object of beauty and desire, something to strive for. Something that will turn people's heads. Okay, it does that for sure. BUT:

I see an overengineered overweight expensive gadget failure prone pimpwagon good only for boulevard cruising that I could blow the doors off of performance wise for less than the property taxes the thing costs each year. No, I wouldn't get as many looks but I don't really care about that.

Not to mention whatever that project car is would quite possibly be much more reliable and would leave me much more disposable income in my bank account. I guess that makes me a function over form kinda guy. Guilty as charged, Your Honor.

I'm curious as to how this styling will be received overseas since that was supposedly a big part of why FFR was doing this. I don't see how Shelby Cobra styling is less desirable the world over but somehow the WRX parts are easier to come by?

In reply to Jaynen:

I'm a bit confused? Just my .02, but the 818 should not look like the Roadster since it goes in a completely different direction, performance and market wise.

As an afterthought: I would think the 'street' version might sell better if there were, say, a 2 piece hardtop (like the old TR4 'surrey' top) available and maybe those strap type Lexan side windows just so there would be some sort of weather protection. That way the average schlub could drive it when rain was forecast, even if it does make it sorta hard to climb out.

Surrey top:

I don't care at all about this car because it doesn't have a roof (fixed or removable) and roll up windows. I cannot own a car in the North East without them.

I like that it is a proper roadster with no top.

90 percent of this silly negativity will disipate as soon as the completed car reviews come in. The car will be extremely fast (sorry Toybaru, but you're toast, performance-wise); and it's pretty enough.

The many engine options thing is where Kurt Bilinski is going with the Midlana, which will end up as a sort of mid-engined Locost. I think his business model is selling books, and he works on the car in his spare time, so he'll probably do all right on it. It should be hundreds of pounds lighter than the 818 and cost less money but probably a lot more time to complete.

Factory Five has set a laundry list of goals for the 818:

1,800 lb (818 kg) curb weight

Three bodies, including coupe

Available soft top for open cars

Multiple engine options, including a diesel

No paint body

< $10,000 kit price for base model (no doors, no roof)

< $15,000 build price

World car

Right as well as left-hand drive versions

Styling that will set your hair on fire.

From what I've read from builders of Factory Five kits, mostly about the Cobra-clone and the GTM, I don't see a track record that indicates all of these goals will be met.

In particular, FF seems to be weak in doors and tops, as well as QC for its panel production, where big improvement will be essential to producing no-paint bodies. Regarding styling, the mediocre design shown so far indicates they are not making use of the outside help they solicited last year, and the in-house designers so far have only produced clones:

Cobra clone

Cobra Daytona clone

Spyder based on the Daytona coupe clone

Clone of a French race car body which was itself based on the GT-40

'33 Ford clone

It would be nice if this car could be a fully transformative model for Factory Five, dragging them forward in time to a market that can survive as people with nostalgia for 1930s-1960s designs graduate from the marketplace. I think it's more realistic though to expect it to be a stepping stone, both in design and in engineering and production quality.

Whatever happens, it will probably end up as a pretty neat car, but I'm not expecting the moon and stars from it, and I think given the drama they've created on their own web forum that Factory Five should have kept the whole project under wraps until it was near production.

@Curmudgeon I just meant that one of FFRs goals with this car was supposed to be to build a global userbase while their current offerings have favored the american market. Looking at the cars built in Europe I would expect their desires to be even more design heavy.

Okay, that makes sense.

FWIW and IIRC, Cobra replicas sell like crazy overseas.

Curmudgeon wrote: Okay, that makes sense. FWIW and IIRC, Cobra replicas sell like crazy overseas.

Which is what I thought because overseas seeing a muscle car etc is stereotypical american and also much more rare.

The difference is that overseas, there are kit cars that aren't Cobras There are more "Cobras" in Grand Junction than there are turbo Miatas.

Pictures! I have been given permission to release.