944 vs C4 as a DD track rat

Javelin wrote: Here's a thought, 3rd Gen Camraro/Firebird? Similar TPI motor as the C4, way cheaper to buy and maintain, bettern than the C4 at DD duties, and can be made just as fast around a track. Find a WS6 hardtop Formula with the 305/T5 and swap in a 350/383 with alloy heads. The aerodynamics are sound (the fastest car in all of Europe until the Veyron SS was a 253MPH 3rd Gen Bird with a blown big block) as well. Might be hard to find, but probably worth at least taking a look. The maintenance on one is pennies compared to either the C4 or the 944.

Sorry, really don't like those. I'm kinda trying to pick something I know I like and preferably something I've owned before so I don't fall too deep into the smelly brown stuff while buying.

Bobzilla wrote: ACTUAL maintenance on a C4 is the same as the Camaro, but without the live axle, the E36 M3ty chassis, the weak brakes and the small tires....plus no mullet required to own one.

Say wha? C4 brakes = $$$, C4 hubs = $$$$, c4 electrics = $$$$$ You are going to seriously suggest that track maintnance on a C4 is the same as a Camaro?

c4 brakes cost no more than a 3rd gen. I just replaced all of mine. C4 hubs = 4th Gen hubs... so that's a wash. Same electrics besides the actual dash. And if track rat is what you want, you're going to install a guage set anyway. And you get a real chassis that has more potential than any C4 ever thought of.

So yeah, I say you're full of E36 M3..... like normal.

Wow, way to get personal. What is it with the BS Internet warrior name-calling crap here lately? I would think the resident Hyundai-lover would be a little less like a jerk.

Rock Auto prices 3/30/11 (1987 Corvette vrs 1987 Camaro):

• Front rotor (Delco): C4 $38, Z28 $58
• Front Hub: C4 $484, Z28 $23 (Delco bearing kit)
• Front Caliper (unloaded, Bendix), C4 $60, Z28 $26
• Rear Caliper (unloaded, Bendix), C4 $80, Z28 $78 (semi-loaded)
• Front Pads (Delco), C4 $47, Z28 $27
• Rear Pads (Delco), C4 $47, Z28 $33
• Radiator (Delco, standard/HD), C4 $90/$117, Z28 $85/$103 (off-brands, no Delco available)
• Clutch Kit (Delco), C4 $207, Z28 $124

Yeah, so I am so full of it because by my calculator you spent $1715 on your C4 to get it track ready and I only spent $502 for the same parts on the Camaro.

BoxheadTim wrote:

Javelin wrote: Here's a thought, 3rd Gen Camraro/Firebird?

Sorry, really don't like those. I'm kinda trying to pick something I know I like and preferably something I've owned before so I don't fall too deep into the smelly brown stuff while buying.

Good to know. Any other candidates?

Well, so far:

• 1st or 2nd gen MR2, if I can find one that's not riced out
• Me-Otter, 'cos this is GRM
• 924S or 944 (hmm, why does 944 spell 9$$ if you have a coordination problem?)
• C4
• E30 or E36
• I really don't like FWD but I might consider a CRX to tide me over
• I've been trying to look at a local X1/9 for several weeks now but the seller seems to have fallen off the edge of the world recently.

Generally I'd prefer handling over outright power and would prefer something that doesn't need a lot of mods to be usable on track. Ideally it should also have half-decent aftermarket support for such endeavors.

Javelin wrote: Wow, way to get personal. What is it with the BS Internet warrior name-calling crap here lately? I would think the resident Hyundai-lover would be a little less like a jerk. Rock Auto prices 3/30/11 (1987 Corvette vrs 1987 Camaro): * Front rotor (Delco): C4 $38, Z28 $58 * Front Hub: C4 $484, Z28 $23 (Delco bearing kit) * Front Caliper (unloaded, Bendix), C4 $60, Z28 $26 * Rear Caliper (unloaded, Bendix), C4 $80, Z28 $78 (semi-loaded) * Front Pads (Delco), C4 $47, Z28 $27 * Rear Pads (Delco), C4 $47, Z28 $33 * Radiator (Delco, standard/HD), C4 $90/$117, Z28 $85/$103 (off-brands, no Delco available) * Clutch Kit (Delco), C4 $207, Z28 $124 Yeah, so I am so full of it because by my calculator you spent $1715 on your C4 to get it track ready and I only spent $502 for the same parts on the Camaro.

Wow... you do a great job of ASSuming. I spent $34 apiece for front rotors, I spent $27 a piece for rears, no bearings needed, mine are doing just fine. And when I do need them, it'll be the $96 4th gen units. I bought Hawk HPS pads for ~$60 a set. I got bushings, braided lines and a steering wheel for $200. My big "splurge" was a set of correct Z51 Bilsteins for $300.

Calipers are really hard to berkeley up. If you're replacing calipers that often, I'd say its the loose nut behind the wrench causing you problems. So I have new pads, rotors, lines, fluid, bushings and shocks for ~$750. I'm changing every fluid except coolant and p/s fluid tonight for $36.

I don't know about you, but none of these REAL PRICES I PAID sound anything like what you're posting. Not to mention that instead of 11" front rotors with small bearings and single piston calipers I have thick 13" rotors with dual piston calipers. Kinda get what you pay for don't you? I mean, if you want to stop a 3300lb F-bod with 11" rotors from a buck twenty on 11" rotors, you go for it.

Clearly, in light of all this intellectual conversation, the bottom line is that a base model Geo Metro is the best track car, because it's the cheapest to maintain.

I can find rotors for $7 apiece for that car. Can't beat that.

BoxheadTim wrote: Well, so far: - 1st or 2nd gen MR2, if I can find one that's not riced out - Me-Otter, 'cos this is GRM - 924S or 944 (hmm, why does 944 spell 9$$ if you have a coordination problem?) - C4 - E30 or E36 - I really don't like FWD but I might consider a CRX to tide me over - I've been trying to look at a local X1/9 for several weeks now but the seller seems to have fallen off the edge of the world recently. Generally I'd prefer handling over outright power and would prefer something that doesn't need a lot of mods to be usable on track. Ideally it should also have half-decent aftermarket support for such endeavors.

I guess the biggest thing is how much are you looking to spend on one? THat will really determine the quality of each vehicle you're looking at. a $3k 944 or C4 is going to need work, even if you get lucky. But a $3k miata won'tbe nearly as ragged, ya know?

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Clearly, in light of all this intellectual conversation, the bottom line is that a base model Geo Metro is the best track car, because it's the cheapest to maintain.

I can whole heartedly assure that is not true at all.... Geo parts are expensive dude!

Although, in all seriousness, I can honestlysay that C4 parts are MCUH cheaper and easier to come by than 1994 Suzuki Swift GT parts. Plus there's more of them to choose from.

Modded 96 Miata, $3000

85 MR2, $2500

Built GSL-SE, $3000!

87 944, $3200

87 Corvette C4, Auto, $3600

And the winner is...

89 T/A GTA 350/6-Speed hardtop, $3100!!

Bobzilla wrote: Wow... you do a great job of ASSuming. I spent $34 apiece for front rotors, I spent $27 a piece for rears, no bearings needed, mine are doing just fine. And when I do need them, it'll be the $96 4th gen units. I bought Hawk HPS pads for ~$60 a set. I got bushings, braided lines and a steering wheel for $200. My big "splurge" was a set of correct Z51 Bilsteins for $300. Calipers are really hard to berkeley up. If you're replacing calipers that often, I'd say its the loose nut behind the wrench causing you problems. So I have new pads, rotors, lines, fluid, bushings and shocks for ~$750. I'm changing every fluid except coolant and p/s fluid tonight for $36. I don't know about you, but none of these REAL PRICES I PAID sound anything like what you're posting. Not to mention that instead of 11" front rotors with small bearings and single piston calipers I have thick 13" rotors with dual piston calipers. Kinda get what you pay for don't you? I mean, if you want to stop a 3300lb F-bod with 11" rotors from a buck twenty on 11" rotors, you go for it.

A+ to you for reading comprehension. I stated that C4's were more expensive to maintain, and backed that claim up with verifiable evidence. But apparently every C4 is only going to need exactly what yours did, and everybody can get your prices. Did I claim it would need calipers a lot? No. I wrote "needed to prepare for the track". You know, things you do to a new purchase before zipping at a wall at 100+.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Clearly, in light of all this intellectual conversation, the bottom line is that a base model Geo Metro is the best track car, because it's the cheapest to maintain. I can find rotors for $7 apiece for that car. Can't beat that.

Wow, you really have no clue, do you? We were discussing the cost of maintaining a track car / DD versus it's price and performance. You know, why people like Miata's because they are relatively cheap to maintain AND relatively fast on a track.

Seriously, I thought you had grown up a bit lately.

Don't make me post a Rodney King picture with the "Why can't we all just get along?" quote.

The 944/C4 discussion was great before the digression.

Otto Maddox wrote: Don't make me post a Rodney King picture with the "Why can't we all just get along?" quote. The 944/C4 discussion was great before the digression.

I was thinking of posting a youtube video of "Why can't we be friends?"

I'm thinking I know which one needs to "grow up a bit".....

My apologies sir. I was unaware that you were the end all, be all of all things motorsports related to every manufacture and every vehicle. Since you are the all-knowing eye here, why don't you tell me why the wife's car stopped running on her yesterday with 191k miles. I could sure use assistance with that one.

In reply to Javelin:

Modded 96 Miata, $3000

Hadn't seen that, thanks. I guess I'll better find out if that's still available.

85 MR2, $2500

Been trying to get hold of the seller for a while now, there are only so many times you want to leave your number and ask someone to call you back...

Built GSL-SE, $3000!

That's been for sale around here just about forever, but something in the original ad put me off. Can't quite remember what it was, though.

87 944, $3200

Looked at that last Sunday. The reupholstered front seat (so the current owner would fit) would need replacing, engine undertray missing, not much in the way of history and a sneaking suspicion that it'll need a clutch soon. After talking to a local-ish specialist re the cost of a timing belt and clutch replacement, I figured the S2 I'm planning to look at on Saturday would probably work out cheaper at twice the price.

87 Corvette C4, Auto, $3600

Hmm. If that wasn't a slushy I'd be all over that. Love the color, wheels, can do without the fake wood. Anybody used a slushbox car as a track vehicle?

89 T/A GTA 350/6-Speed hardtop, $3100!!

Hmm. I like the looks of those but TBH I probably want something reasonably standard so I don't end up having to redo the work like on the last Turbo Miata I bought in the UK, done by a "forum egg spurt".

Bobzilla wrote: I'm thinking I know which one needs to "grow up a bit"..... My apologies sir. I was unaware that you were the end all, be all of all things motorsports related to every manufacture and every vehicle. Since you are the all-knowing eye here, why don't you tell me why the wife's car stopped running on her yesterday with 191k miles. I could sure use assistance with that one.

Umm... Come on guys is this all really necessary.

^ yes. Same E36 M3, different day with the same person gets old..... just calling it like I see it. Sorry if my frankness offends.... I just like hotdogs.

Bobzilla wrote: I'm thinking I know which one needs to "grow up a bit"..... My apologies sir. I was unaware that you were the end all, be all of all things motorsports related to every manufacture and every vehicle. Since you are the all-knowing eye here, why don't you tell me why the wife's car stopped running on her yesterday with 191k miles. I could sure use assistance with that one.

Easy, it's a Hyundai

Bobzilla wrote: ^ yes. Same E36 M3, different day with the same person gets old..... just calling it like I see it. Sorry if my frankness offends.... I just like hotdogs.

Funny, I don't remember ever arguing with you before. As for the growing-up, it's pretty easy to see who started name-calling and throwing around their sarcasm-laden diatribe.

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Clearly, in light of all this intellectual conversation, the bottom line is that a base model Geo Metro is the best track car, because it's the cheapest to maintain. I can find rotors for $7 apiece for that car. Can't beat that.

Wow, you really have no clue, do you? We were discussing the cost of maintaining a track car / DD versus it's price and performance. You know, why people like Miata's because they are relatively cheap to maintain AND relatively fast on a track. Seriously, I thought you had grown up a bit lately.

It was a joke... and i certainly don't need someone on a forum gauging whether or not i've been "growing up." Talk about talking down to someone, sheesh.

But seriously... you're paying for performance. Compare the brakes on a 3rd gen vs. a C4, and it becomes very clear where the cost differences come from, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I wouldn't expect to pay the same for the brakes on the Celica as i would for the brakes on the Escort. Why should anyone else?

My post was merely illustrating the apples to steak comparison that you two have delved into. Have you seen the brakes of a 3rd gen and C4 side by side?

I have no clue, and i'm a young buck that has a lot of growing up to do, though. So, take what i say with many grains of salt. Probably the whole shaker. I only know Toyotas.

*ignoring the arguing in the room...

That Miata is a good deal. As the proud owner of a mk1 MR2, if I had the option to buy another car, I would probably get a MK2 or a 1.8 Miata.

More potentials:

74 Alfa Spyder (needs head) for $3500

CLEAN 1.8L Porsche 914 for $3500!

73K mile 84 944 for $2600

Modded 87 Corvette for $5000 (unknown trans)

91 Miata for $800!

80 FIAT Spider 2000 for $1100

96 Eclipse GSX (Turbo AWD) for $4000

And the real winner...

84 Maserati Biturbo for $1200

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Clearly, in light of all this intellectual conversation, the bottom line is that a base model Geo Metro is the best track car, because it's the cheapest to maintain. I can find rotors for $7 apiece for that car. Can't beat that.

Wow, you really have no clue, do you? We were discussing the cost of maintaining a track car / DD versus it's price and performance. You know, why people like Miata's because they are relatively cheap to maintain AND relatively fast on a track. Seriously, I thought you had grown up a bit lately.

It was a joke... But seriously... you're paying for performance. Compare the brakes on a 3rd gen vs. a C4, and it becomes very clear where the cost differences come from, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I wouldn't expect to pay the same for the brakes on the Celica as i would for the brakes on the Escort. Why should anyone else? My post was merely illustrating the apples to steak comparison that you two have delved into. Have you seen the brakes of a 3rd gen and C4 side by side? I have no clue, and i'm a young buck that has a lot of growing up to do, though. So, take what i say with many grains of salt. Probably the whole shaker. I only know Toyotas.

You have to use a smiley when it's a joke, like this:

I have not seen a C4 brake and a 3rd Gen brake side-by-side, but neither is anything to write home about. I have driven both in anger and both could use help on the stoppers. Notice though that the big difference was in the hubs and other such Corvette-centric items. It's a more advanced chassis, yes, which adds more expense. The question is whether or not the expense is worth the performance gain, if any, on top of the difference in buy-in costs.

If money were no object, we'd all have Porsche 917's or Ferrari F1's.