A Description of Drifting

P71 wrote: Drag racing is by far the friendliest crowd of them all. That's one of the reasons I fell in love with it, the people are all there to put a smile on their face.

That is far from my experience.

I got yelled at when I was at the entrance gate. I got yelled at for running my a/c when I was in line. I got yelled at when it took me took long trying to stage for the first time ever. I got yelled at for parking in someone's spot. I got yelled at for having a slow piece of crap that is wasting valuable track time. I got yelled at for having street tires. I got ridiculed by the people in the stands, etc, etc, etc, etc....

Autocrossers may sometimes be busy doing their own thing, but I never got the impression that they didn't want me there and I've never heard someone tell a novice that they are x.xx slower than they should be...

P71 wrote: Dave, having done both (and drag raced actually fast cars) I have to say drifting takes nowhere near the skill the skill level of keeping a 700+ HP 9-second car on the track.

Sure it does, its just a different type of skill. Ive never drag raced in my life, i dont think it looks fun. but thats just me and i know a ton of people that feel the same way. but that doesnt make it any less of a sport.

And sure, there is an incredibly technical side to drag racing from repsonse times to 60 ft times, how well you set up your car and all that stuff that i never got into or know anything about, it just not fun to some people. plus ive never owned a fast car in my life.... that may be why i never got into it....

P71 wrote: Dave, having done both (and drag raced actually fast cars) I have to say drifting takes nowhere near the skill the skill level of keeping a 700+ HP 9-second car on the track.

You can't be serious, I honestly think you're just jacking with me at this point, LOL! Are you? HAHAHA! Seriously brother.

Okay, I'm going to still call you on this one. Drift that 700hp car around the track, you'll get back to drag racing like .. . wow, this is MUCH easier! Drag racing doesn't require the driving skill needed to pilot a car around a track sideways.

How about this . . .take a 120hp car and drag race it. WOO HOO, the glory. Take that same car and drift it. We've unlocked a whole new degree of difficulty. In all honesty, on any scale, it doesn't compare.

120hp drag vs 120hp drift

700hp drag vs 700hp drift

As Blaze said, it's not a battle of skill out there until you start getting into the higher hp levels. The only other time it's about skill is when you start getting into bracket racing where people are limited to what they "should" run. Keep the tire spin to the optimal amount, shift at the right point, other than that, just point the car forward and keep it out of the wall.

I'll agree, 700hp is probably pretty difficult to keep from the wall, especially when it's being put to the floor in a rat rod which has the stability of an empty Rubbermaid trashcan in the wind. But while that's difficult, it's completely different than controlling it through a turn, sideways, going down the straight sideways, transitioning partway through, transitioning again, transitioning yet again then sliding into and through the next turn.

I'm sorry, I can't accept this. . . the battle, especially on most "Free-For-All Fridays", is one of power and attrition, not of who has the best ability to rev match going into the apex.

Jeez, why do so many people on car forums feel the need to argue that their own personal favorite form of motorsports is the one true sport that demonstrates the greatest possible amount of driver skill? Especially when, deep down, they all know it's Autocross .

HAHAHA!! You joke too much, everyone knows Nopi is the pinnacle of motorsports skillz!

Driving a car to it's absolute limits rocks. Period. In any venue. Strait ahead. Completely sideway. Backwards and upside down while wailing on an an electric guitar and steering with your butt. It all rocks.

Different venues take different skills. It's tough to say which ones take more.

What amounts to really cool style is subjective. In terms of drifting, I actually prefer the looks of a clapped out, rattle-can primered rat, with the back windows busted out, and the front bumper torn off to reveal a properly installed intercooler. I love watching the cheap rats go up against the fancy vinyled up and body kitted rides, hang sideways, get smoke, and pass the "nice" car under drift by taking a cleaner line faster.

I'm also a big proponent that form follows function. I like clean and purposeful. I like to look at a vehicle and have it convey that "I was meant to do this," when it's not even moving yet.

My favorite car in the local scene is a mostly stock '92 Miata that has been painted up in camo. He doesn't have the power to get big smoke, bit the guy throws that thing around, and gets it looking like it's floating across the pad. Plus, I'm partial to Miatas.

Josh wrote: Jeez, why do so many people on car forums feel the need to argue that their own personal favorite form of motorsports is the one true sport that demonstrates the greatest possible amount of driver skill? Especially when, deep down, they all know it's Autocross .

"Follow the gourd!"

"No! Follow the shoe!"

Josh wrote: Jeez, why do so many people on car forums feel the need to argue that their own personal favorite form of motorsports is the one true sport that demonstrates the greatest possible amount of driver skill? Especially when, deep down, they all know it's Autocross .

THIS is TRUTH!

LOL!

OK, ok, I am just pulling your leg a little. I have actually done both, and I do feel drag racing is harder, but then again I did a drift event in a V8/automatic. All I had to do was mash the gas and point the nose. Of course, the same thing can be said about drag racing once. I'm sure if tried to achieve the same amount of skill at drifting that I have at drag racing (2 event wins and the season championship in my class this year...) I would find it more difficult. I still do not believe it is more difficult to drift then autocross or drive on a track/HPDE or even drag race a high-HP car.

However, I have done at least one drag race, autocross, HPDE, TSD Rally, drift event, and gymkhana. The only form of 4-wheel racing I really haven't done is rallycross and stage rally, and I want to do both of those as well. I can honestly say that autocross is the hardest, most rewarding, and best bang-for-the-buck of them all. At my local clubs we average 7 50-second runs for $40 and it's a great time on challenging courses with really friendly people. If I could only do one form of motorsport for the rest of my life, I'd do autocross.

Salanis wrote: Driving a car to it's absolute limits rocks. Period. In any venue. Strait ahead. Completely sideway. Backwards and upside down while wailing on an an electric guitar really hard and steering with your butt. It all rocks.

Fixed that for you.

thatsnowinnebago wrote:

Salanis wrote: Driving a car to it's absolute limits rocks. Period. In any venue. Strait ahead. Completely sideway. Backwards and upside down while wailing on an an electric guitar really hard and steering with your butt. It all rocks.

Fixed that for you.

Thanks. I thought "acoustic" would be more ironic, but you're right. You can really only properly wail on an electric guitar.

P71 wrote: However, I have done at least one drag race, autocross, HPDE, TSD Rally, drift event, and gymkhana. The only form of 4-wheel racing I really haven't done is rallycross and stage rally, and I want to do both of those as well. I can honestly say that autocross is the hardest, most rewarding, and best bang-for-the-buck of them all. At my local clubs we average 7 50-second runs for $40 and it's a great time on challenging courses with really friendly people. If I could only do one form of motorsport for the rest of my life, I'd do autocross.

That's because you haven't done performance rally yet :) It's not a great bang for the buck - potentially very expensive! - but it's harder and more rewarding than dodging cones. I think it's Per that calls it the "crack cocaine of motorsports".

You also haven't done any wheel to wheel racing with corners, have you? HDPE isn't the same thing.

I think it's Per that calls it the "crack cocaine of motorsports".

Once you start, you can never go back

I've actually done quite a bit of cart racing, which is mini-real racing, but I see your point. Door-to-door racing is way beyond my means as is F1, Land Speed Racing, etc so I didn't include it. Stage Rally is beyond me as well so I'm trying to be a co-driver with a friend. I love watching rallies (in person ROCKS!) and I would LOVE to give it a try.

P71, what you're talking about with drifting and what Stig is talking about are a bit different.

You're talking solo drifting, and (I presume) on a skidpad. It's pretty tough to screw that up.

He's talking about tandem drifting on a defined course. That involves trying to get as close to the other driver, and stay in unison with them. You don't get to hold any line you want to, at any speed and any slip angle you want. You need to be able to make the car hold exactly the same speed, line and slip angle as the guy 5' away.

I can kick my Miata out and link drifts around pylons, but I can't do that.

Appleseed wrote: Funny that Miatas and drifting were mentioned here. I frequent Miata.net. Those guys hate drifting with a passion. Glad to see that's not true here.

I looked into drifting with my miata when I first picked it up and found roadsterdrift.com pretty much the opposite of miata.net. I had an extra set of tires and wanted to burn them up, but at the same time I didn't want to spend a night flipped over in a field because I couldn't find a suitable place to go.

Salanis wrote: P71, what you're talking about with drifting and what Stig is talking about are a bit different. You're talking solo drifting, and (I presume) on a skidpad. It's pretty tough to screw that up. He's talking about tandem drifting on a defined course. That involves trying to get as close to the other driver, and stay in unison with them. You don't get to hold any line you want to, at any speed and any slip angle you want. You need to be able to make the car hold exactly the same speed, line and slip angle as the guy 5' away. I can kick my Miata out and link drifts around pylons, but I can't do that.

Clarity in an unclear world . . .

There's a huge difference between this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTf7ORshhM8

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTwbzF_ckv4

-Dave

blaze86vic wrote: How can you people not understand the joy of drifting. Stop looking at it as a pure competition, and look at it as something fun to do.

Bingo! I think a large contributing factor to the disagreement about drifting is that so many enthusiasts see or hear "drifting" and immediately think of Formula D or some similar upper-tier "competitive" event with lots of strobe lights, big wings, umbrella girls, etc. and shortly after that, they start ranting about how a judged event is motorsports. Drifting is a driving style, and it is tons of fun. There are events and occasions for drifting with nary a judge nor a DJ in sight.

HPDE drivers don't appreciate a lecture from someone who hasn't been out on track, especially when the accusation is that the sport it isn't accessible and is to expensive because all someone understands of driving on a road course is CART, TransAm, ALMS, etc. Likewise they don't like to be lumped in idiot kids speeding on the highway, or lectured on how 'dangerous' it is to drive fast.

Drag racers don't appreciate the accusation that the top of their sport is easy or it is just "standing on the gas and pointing it straight." I'm guessing they probably also don't appreciate getting lumped in with the poseurs talking trash in the stands but never running or the clueless newbs clogging up the track with improper staging.

In the same vein, folks who enjoy oversteer and like a safe venue to really push the boundaries of car control don't take too kindly to the same old uninformed bs about figure skating, "automotive ballet," or the immediate accusation that it isn't valid because there isn't any timing and it is all about looking good for the judges. The drifting events I've done were essentially car control clinics crossed with a safe and legal chance to do a little hooning in a parking lot.

I guess the overall point I'm trying to make is that every subset of the sport has some idiots making the rest of us look bad. Every subset has some big televised events and some grassroots ones. The lack of timing doesn't make an HPDE invalid, nor does it render a good launch and hard acceleration 'useless' if there timing lights and a slip at the end of the run. Same with a drift event. Let's all support each other and our efforts to improve our skills and have fun behind the wheel.

I'm really looking forward to next weekend.

Full-track drift at Thunderhill! WooHoo!

What surprised me is that, there wasn't enough interest to fill three run groups with drifting. The organizers had to make one run group a "grip only" group. If anyone in the area is interested, you can sign up at: www.thunderdrift.com

Dam you Salanis !!!

Ok breath deeply

Repeat after me:

Can't afford to ball up the Mazdaspeed6

Can't afford to ball up the Mazdaspeed6

Can't afford to ball up the Mazdaspeed6

Can't afford to ball up the Mazdaspeed6

berkeley, I need a miata