A Different Kind Of V8 Miata

In reply to Keith Tanner:

We are doing it as a one off, and it's going to be a great promotional tool along the way, but to assume that this is the only reason for this project is going to be completely incorrect. The engine might not produce the kind of power that your LS3 does, but the way that I've designed this I think we will have some significant dynamic advantages. First, the engine will be moved back about 12". Yes, the firewall is going to be relocated far back, don't worry guys, I do that stuff for living This engine was designed from the factory with a dry sump, which allows it to sit MUCH lower in the chassis than any wet sump engine, even if you convert to a dry sump... Second, I'm mating it to a very compact 6 speed sequential trans made by Samsonas. The engine is lighter than an LS by a good margin and the trans is just 80 Lbs! This means the car will be lighter and have better weight dist.

The low torque should also allow us to get away with OEM diff and axles, which again, save weight. It's a time attack car, so no hard launches. The sequential trans is going to do a great job keeping it in the powerband and we can easily swap diffs to suit different tracks.

Lastly, though definitely not least, I'll NEVER get tired of the ferocious sounds of the Modena engine! The flat plane crank 40 valve Ferrari V8 is one of the best sound engines out there, definitely better sounding than the later V8s in the 430 and the 458.

I'll be absolutely happy to have your car and Morpheus on track at MRLS once it's up and running so that we can see whether this is just a publicity tool or a proper race car, all in good fun, buddy!

In reply to Moti_BlackbirdFabworx:

Cool to hear your reasons for doing the swap. I figured, having read about the rest of the car, that you had reasons for doing it other than just being cool.

Moti_BlackbirdFabworx wrote: This engine was designed from the factory with a dry sump, which allows it to sit MUCH lower in the chassis than any wet sump engine, even if you convert to a dry sump...

Something I've observed is that the lowest point of V8s tends to be the bellhousing/transmission.

I think most of the reason a C5's engine is able to be so low is because there isn't a transmission behind it. A C5 oil pan is about as deep as the oil filter is long. Other LS oil pans are much deeper but the lowest point is where it bolts to the transmission's bellhousing.

So, what's the diameter of the flywheel on one of those Ferrari engines? I'm also assuming that the fancy gearbox has side by side shafts or is even inverted.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Came here hoping they were going to put one of these in a 'Yata: I really want to do this, someday. Either in a Miata or an RX-7.

Ad a 3 speed plus overdrive, for extra fun.

In reply to Knurled:

You'd need it, to keep the revs down with the Miata's 4.1 final drive ratio.

You'd end up with about the same amount of power, a bit more front end weight, but completely different power delivery and sound. It would be...unique.

In reply to Knurled:

I'll measure when I get to the shop, but I can tell you that everything is compact and built in such way that you can mount it as low as possible. There's no big bellhousing sticking down or anything like that and if I had a chance to measure the setup side by side with a common config like LS3/T56 I would expect my setup to be ~4" lower or so - huge difference!

In reply to Moti_BlackbirdFabworx:

Well thought out. I love time attack right now for the mechanical creativity. Keep being awesome.

Hey Moti!

I have no doubt you've thought through the engineering - you know I love your stuff. Whether it was a primary motivator or not, it's going to be a spectacular marketing tool. There are probably 10x as many people who have heard of Blackbird today than had heard of you a week ago. Might be 100x if/when the big blogs pick it up.

In Can Am, small and light lost out to massive and powerful I doubt Morpheus and the Targa will ever share the track due to logistics, but I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing your mad creation.

Knurled wrote: Something I've observed is that the lowest point of V8s tends to be the bellhousing/transmission.

bear in mind that the size of the bellhousing has more to do with the clutch/flywheel size than the trans or engine. I'd bet that the Ferrari uses a system that has a pretty small flywheel and clutch- otherwise, the dry sump would be pretty pointless.

Googling got me this for the clutch:

So it looks like it shouldn't impact the ground clearance much, if at all. I wonder what the top speed will be with all that aero and a buttload more power than its' current drivetrain offers? Any plans to integrate the exhaust into the diffuser/wing setup?

Just took a measurement, the FW is ~10.5" diameter, smaller than a stock Miata FW And like the pic above shows, it has no effect on ground clearance.

¯_(ツ)_/¯ , we're going to incorporate the exhaust into a blown diffuser.

Keith Tanner wrote: Hey Moti! ... Whether it was a primary motivator or not, it's going to be a spectacular marketing tool. There are probably 10x as many people who have heard of Blackbird today than had heard of you a week ago. Might be 100x if/when the big blogs pick it up.

This is the answer to my question. Most excellent marketing tool, so yeah, kinda like a supermodel. But like a supermodel, when all said and done, no real tangible performance benefits over a FM conversion regardless of what is on display.

If I had to live with one or the other, it would be the FM conversion.

Lol, I think you need to read a bit more carefully...

Keith Tanner wrote: Hey Moti! I have no doubt you've thought through the engineering - you know I love your stuff. Whether it was a primary motivator or not, it's going to be a spectacular marketing tool. There are probably 10x as many people who have heard of Blackbird today than had heard of you a week ago. Might be 100x if/when the big blogs pick it up. In Can Am, small and light lost out to massive and powerful I doubt Morpheus and the Targa will ever share the track due to logistics, but I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing your mad creation.

You know, GRM holds this little thing call the Ultimate Track Car Challenge. This would appear to be the ideal place for a V8 Miata showdown!

I'm positive I'm not the only one who'd like to see the Blackbird Fabworx car see what it can do against Flyin Miata's finest! Come on guys......bring it on!

Think you are fast? Prove it!

Moti_BlackbirdFabworx wrote: ...whether this is just a publicity tool or a proper race car...

"proper race car" = "publicity tool"

Just own it, my good man. It's not like anybody here has ever disparaged Keith for Targa Miata being a publicity tool...Nor will they you for this awesomely mad creation.

I don't think super model and trailor park trash is a good comparison between this and a fm.

To me trailorpark girls are a negative thing like hoodrats. Its more like a girl next door vs exotic girl who just moved in. But, both are beautiful, smart, and easy to get along with. Its a matter of taste and what youre looking for.

Moti_BlackbirdFabworx wrote: Lol, I think you need to read a bit more carefully...

Being lighter and easier to mount lower in a chassis is apparently not beneficial. Interesting.

Moti, you (or someone) should put one in a new 124 next. Keith??

In reply to Driven5:

Hey Justin, I said right at the very top of my post that this will be an excellent promotional tool, no issues with owning that at all. The part you quoted was the answer to anyone that feels that this JUST a publicity tool... I reckon Morpheus will end up being a wicked fast race car, I might even make the cross country trek next year to VIR per Joe's request to make sure the point comes across

In reply to Moti_BlackbirdFabworx:

I'd argue that for any business building and/or sponsoring one, a race car is technically 'just' a publicity tool...No matter how much of a labor of love it may be for the people within the company. In regards to Blackbird Fabworx, no matter how fast this car is going at the time, it will primarily be publicizing just how much you're capable of.

Oh, and by the way, it's awesome to see how far Blackbird Fabworx has come Moti!

volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to Knurled: You'd need it, to keep the revs down with the Miata's 4.1 final drive ratio.

Well, I heard that with a four barrel carb, dual exhaust, and 4.11 gears, you can really get lost.

Glad to see you on GRM Moti, I've always liked your work, very clean!! Keep posting update here please!!

Moti_BlackbirdFabworx wrote: First, the engine will be moved back about 12". Yes, the firewall is going to be relocated far back, don't worry guys, I do that stuff for living

I'm trying to imagine this while looking at my Miata. Seems like the engine would be riding shotgun with you. Definitely going to be front mid-engine for sure. And a real short driveshaft.

It will tighten the pedal box a bit, but I was planning on going to a set of Tilton pedals anyway, so it's not a biggie.

Unfortunately I will need both miatas loaned to me for a good 6 months before I will be able to pick a winner.