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GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
9/25/20 11:08 a.m.

 Thanks for posting that TurnerX19! Those things are sweet, and honestly I hope LiFePO gets more attention; lots of interesting benefits in them compared to Li-Ion.

In Reply to DaveM :

You're -probably- right simply due to amortization/scale, but that's also assuming brand new batteries. There is actually, quite a big power wall fandom who's a big reason why there's so many parts for 18650 batteries in so many configurations- building your own powerwall is actually pretty easy, and their use of fusible links to keep amperage and voltage down (in a spring-loaded carrier the equivalent of a AA holder in a Game Boy) means it's extremely hard to start a thermal runaway in a cell without melting it out from the charge circuit first and it dropping on the floor.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

i think some trimming of branches was done in this thread.  i'm glad.

You sure about that?  Or did I miss some foofaraw this morning?

Bet it was them Nikola boys, drumming up trouble again

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
9/25/20 11:34 a.m.
TurnerX19 said:

We have had EVSR electric single seat sports racing cars on the grid now for 7 years. They run in the same race group as SCCA Spec Racer, and are competitive with them for 45 minute races. All with lithium ferrous phosphate batteries. We have one track operator nearby who forbids LiOn cars for fire control reasons, but the LiFePO is so fire safe that there is no concern.  The drivers love them because you can hear the tires and chassis, all say they are easier to be consistent with. SCCA and NASA are onboard. Not as cheap as the $10k Radical proposed earlier in the thread, but not nearly $100k either. Electric racing is here now! 

Thanks Bill.  I've watched a number of EVSR videos on YouTube and have been wondering -- are you guys deliberately limiting your power/torque output in order do keep your lap times in line with SCCA SRFs, or is your cars' current performance more a factor of trying to make the current motor and battery setup run for 45+ minutes before big a falloff in pace? 

sevenracer
sevenracer Reader
9/25/20 12:08 p.m.

Interesting (and respectful, lol) discussion.

 

Back to the original question of how EV's will affect GRM types - my thoughts:

For actual fully caged track cars, no real change anytime soon.  In reality there just aren't that many true log booked race cars out there.  I'm guessing less than 20,000 total in the US.  There's over 275 million registered vehicles in the US plus million's in junkyards and a multi billion dollar parts industry in place to support them. So, finding an ICE car to race won't be a problem for decades.  (I mean, it'll have to be a 3800lb Honda CRV with a CVT slushbox, but that's because you never bought that Frisbee twin with a third pedal like you said would, now did you!).  I think there is a lot of opportunity for purpose built EV options like EVSR, but those will be higher cost than entry level ICE racing  options for a long time.

For tow vehicles, I think there won't be suitable EV options at any reasonable price point any time soon.  I did a rough calculation that my F150 that gets ~8mpg towing my enclosed trailer would need a 300kwh battery to tow 200 miles.  And said battery would need well over an hour to recharge at Tesla Supercharger charging speeds.  So, pretty much a non starter for me.

 

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
9/25/20 2:39 p.m.

In reply to petemc53555 :

I don’t disagree, I’m just concerned that producing power ALREADY produces more carbon than automobiles. Seems like EVs will worsen that condition. 

From what I’ve uncovered, the automobile is third behind power and food production for producing harmful air pollution.

Of course that doesn’t factor in the issues with extracting and transportation of fossil fuel. I am just not so sure the EV is best answer, but I’m open to it being so.

MadScientistMatt, I share your concerns.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
9/25/20 2:41 p.m.

In reply to nderwater :

Both actually. The performance fall off is real after the 45 min mark at Spec Racer pace. The performance when tuned for hill climb is very much greatersurprise I have very little understanding of the controller function. My involvement has been body design and chassis development. I still haven't driven it, but soon. We are working on interchangeable batteries for enduros too.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
9/25/20 2:52 p.m.
CyberEric said:

In reply to petemc53555 :

I don’t disagree, I’m just concerned that producing power ALREADY produces more carbon than automobiles. Seems like EVs will worsen that condition. 

From what I’ve uncovered, the automobile is third behind power and food production for producing harmful air pollution.

Of course that doesn’t factor in the issues with extracting and transportation of fossil fuel. I am just not so sure the EV is best answer, but I’m open to it being so.

MadScientistMatt, I share your concerns.

The question is - will the decrease in automobile emissions be offset by a matching increase in power plant emissions? Cars are a royal pain to make clean because they are constantly in transition, they're running cold a surprising percentage of the time and the quality of maintenance varies. Each one of them needs their own portable emissions control system which is pretty expensive. Oh, and then people screw with them :) That's also ignoring the byproducts of maintenance, even just the volume of waste oil from oil changes is non-trivial. EVs need maintenance as well but not on anywhere near the same level.

If we can centralize that power generation to well-maintained plants that are running as close to their ideal state as possible, will that not be cleaner? That's not even counting all the dreams of solar/wind/tidal/nuclear/cold fusion/whatever power, even with the current grid.

Power is a major contributor to emissions because we use a hell of a lot of it for everything. It's always going to be the biggest contributor. Doesn't mean that the third largest source can't be improved, though.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
9/25/20 2:55 p.m.

Also, (and I haven't read the thread so maybe this was mentioned already) large-scale powerplants are much more thermally efficient than cars. They literally get more power than a car does from the same amount of fuel.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/25/20 5:38 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:That's also ignoring the byproducts of maintenance, even just the volume of waste oil from oil changes is non-trivial.

 

That oil does not get wasted, unless you're changing the oil yourself and pouring the used oil into a hole in the ground.  Used oil is a valuable feedstock, and even when it is just burned for heat, those are BTUs that would otherwise have to be "virgin".

 

Interestingly, to BUY waste oil for use in a furnace, it costs about the same per BTU as natural gas or home heating oil, give or take the usual market fluctuations.  Something that valuable isn't disappearing.

 

When you put oil in your car, the engine is just the first device to use that oil, something else will get it next.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
9/25/20 5:45 p.m.

Fair point. 

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but aren't ocean liners and airplanes bigger polluters than cars?

We have to improve in all these areas if posterity is to have much of a chance in my opinion. I'm fairly convinced I have purchased my one and only new car, so I'm not really a target for the conversation. 

Retrofitting old cars and motorcycles to run electric is definitely a direction I'd like to take. Wider use of electrical/electric infrastructure improvement can only improve that prospect. I love ICEs, but can read the writing on the wall.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/25/20 5:55 p.m.

*calms down*  It's a subject dear to me, and a pet peeve when people assume that oil disappears forever once it comes out of the drain plug.  (Rather like money from public or private funded projects - why that money isn't "gone", it's moving the economy, paying peoples' wages and buying product from suppliers)

 

I was responsible for the care and feeding of an oil furnace that would devour approximately 1500-2000 gallons of oil per season.  The problem was, we did not generate that much oil.  I did the math on buying oil, buying HHO, or running the natural gas furnace, and it turned out that all of those options cost about the same, the only difference was the efficiency of the device that used the oil.  As it happened, natural gas air furnaces are about as inefficient as oil fired furnaces, but radiant heat is MUCH better!

 

So, in the early days, they'd send me out with a barrel pump and pump used oil from other shops' waste oil tanks.  I felt like some sort of petrochemical vampire smiley  It was tiring but way better than the time I acquired two barrels of used 70 weight oil from the racing program, with a wobble pump, and it was well below freezing.  That took over an hour to pump.

 

Anyway.  Digressing.

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/25/20 7:52 p.m.
CyberEric said:

In reply to petemc53555 :

I don’t disagree, I’m just concerned that producing power ALREADY produces more carbon than automobiles. Seems like EVs will worsen that condition. 

From what I’ve uncovered, the automobile is third behind power and food production for producing harmful air pollution.

Of course that doesn’t factor in the issues with extracting and transportation of fossil fuel. I am just not so sure the EV is best answer, but I’m open to it being so.

MadScientistMatt, I share your concerns.

That's just incorrect. Power production is much less carbon intensive per watt of energy versus individual car ICE engines. It's not even close.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
9/25/20 11:22 p.m.

This us what I was looking for in my first post.......keep the posts coming as its interesting reading.

Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/26/20 6:31 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
CyberEric said:

In reply to petemc53555 :

I don’t disagree, I’m just concerned that producing power ALREADY produces more carbon than automobiles. Seems like EVs will worsen that condition. 

From what I’ve uncovered, the automobile is third behind power and food production for producing harmful air pollution.

Of course that doesn’t factor in the issues with extracting and transportation of fossil fuel. I am just not so sure the EV is best answer, but I’m open to it being so.

MadScientistMatt, I share your concerns.

The question is - will the decrease in automobile emissions be offset by a matching increase in power plant emissions? Cars are a royal pain to make clean because they are constantly in transition, they're running cold a surprising percentage of the time and the quality of maintenance varies. Each one of them needs their own portable emissions control system which is pretty expensive. Oh, and then people screw with them :) That's also ignoring the byproducts of maintenance, even just the volume of waste oil from oil changes is non-trivial. EVs need maintenance as well but not on anywhere near the same level.

If we can centralize that power generation to well-maintained plants that are running as close to their ideal state as possible, will that not be cleaner? That's not even counting all the dreams of solar/wind/tidal/nuclear/cold fusion/whatever power, even with the current grid.

Power is a major contributor to emissions because we use a hell of a lot of it for everything. It's always going to be the biggest contributor. Doesn't mean that the third largest source can't be improved, though.

It's not even a question; power plants are amazingly efficient these days.  E.g. a GE 7 series natural gas turbine in combined cycle configuration - the most common new powerplant design in the world - runs at 61% efficiency.  In math(s), that means that it needs about 5,500 btu to produce a kilowatt of energy, equivalent to roughly 1.3 horsepower, for an hour.

To compare to a car, multiply the above by 10 and you get 55,000 btu to produce 130 HP equivalent energy for an hour.  A gallon of gasoline is about 125,000 btu. 

Your ICE engine is less efficient, period, even accounting for a 5-10% loss of energy in getting the electricity from the plant to your house.  

 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/26/20 6:43 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Tackling some of your points. Urban ICE usage is typically short < 20 mile trips where a high percentage is done with the engine cold and enriched.  Ideal  for EV's . Most trips for me are in that 5-10 minute window. To many downtowners  that's a long trip. 
Urban population really is the vast majority of this nations population. So do not give undue concern to those living more rural lives. Like the "horseless carriage" that replaced the horses, rural people will embrace  EV's at their own pace.  
 With working from home becoming practical. The Bank my wife works for found productivity up an astoundingly  great degree  over 37% initially and reaching as high as 43% at last report. In addition costs are down 22%   More and more commuting isn't going to be required. Space to work at home will be but with the savings from reduced or eliminated commuting acquiring the required space should be doable. Solutions include adding space converting space or trading homes for space.  

Schooling at home is both a abject failure and an astounding success.  Some children absolutely thrive, soaring to a great degree. Taking AP level courses as early as their sophomore year. While other children struggle,  the isolation leaving them floundering.  Complex subject best left for another thread. 
 

How does that impact this conversation?  My bus company which last year  had as many as 180 buses on the road in a given day. This year has 30. (And each driver earns less than 1/2 of previous earnings). 

 

School buses would be an excellent choice for EV's  I was the high mileage guy and I drove less than 50 miles on my morning three tiers ( schools)  and the same for the afternoon including activities. Mind you, that start and stop sort of driving is exactly what EV's excell at.  Those were separated by a nearly 4 hour window suitable for recharging.   OK midday charters would need a separate freshly charged bus. 
Product delivery (Bread pop pizza etc ) again would be ideal for EV's as would package delivery.   
 

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/26/20 9:12 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Your day would be ideal for an EV.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
9/26/20 9:49 a.m.
frenchyd said:


Product delivery (Bread pop pizza etc ) again would be ideal for EV's as would package delivery.   
 

There's a pizza place in my neighborhood that's always used EV's for their delivery vehicles.  Years ago they had weird little three wheel things (they must have been horrible in the winter), but there's more to choose from these days so they now use Nissan Leafs.

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
9/26/20 11:26 a.m.

Thank you, this information has been helpful in my education on the matter. Seems like that even though the power sector will see increased demand, the auto sector's decrease (more efficient) will offset that for a net reduction. Plus the clean energy component thrown in the mix. 

I appreciate being able to discuss this.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
9/26/20 11:44 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Tackling some of your points. Urban ICE usage is typically short < 20 mile trips where a high percentage is done with the engine cold and enriched.  Ideal  for EV's . Most trips for me are in that 5-10 minute window. To many downtowners  that's a long trip. 
Urban population really is the vast majority of this nations population. So do not give undue concern to those living more rural lives. Like the "horseless carriage" that replaced the horses, rural people will embrace  EV's at their own pace. 
 

School buses would be an excellent choice for EV's  I was the high mileage guy and I drove less than 50 miles on my morning three tiers ( schools)  and the same for the afternoon including activities. Mind you, that start and stop sort of driving is exactly what EV's excell at.  Those were separated by a nearly 4 hour window suitable for recharging.   OK midday charters would need a separate freshly charged bus. 
Product delivery (Bread pop pizza etc ) again would be ideal for EV's as would package delivery.   
 

While urban driving is a great fit for EVs, charging is still a hurdle for privately owned EVs in that environment. Most urban residents don't have a garage or even a dedicated parking space where they can plug their vehicle in. That means they'd have to settle for more expensive public charging stations, and they'd have to fit that charging into their lives somehow vs a suburban homeowner that just plugs in when they get home and goes about their lives with no schedule disruption.

 

As for EV school buses, Blue Bird will sell you one right now with about 120 miles of range and a full charge in 3 hrs. I think they run about double the cost of an ICE bus though.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
9/26/20 1:32 p.m.
STM317 said:

While urban driving is a great fit for EVs, charging is still a hurdle for privately owned EVs in that environment. Most urban residents don't have a garage or even a dedicated parking space where they can plug their vehicle in. That means they'd have to settle for more expensive public charging stations, and they'd have to fit that charging into their lives somehow vs a suburban homeowner that just plugs in when they get home and goes about their lives with no schedule disruption.

 

As for EV school buses, Blue Bird will sell you one right now. Perhaps others as well, but I'm most familiar with the BB product.


 

Daimler is making EV buses, and so is BYD. Daimler is even begging sales of a Solid-state battery version.

Turning parking garages into solar-roofed stations with grid-battery tie-in is actually a big future deal, but I am unsure of many cities that are doing it because I think it requires a switching station nearby to take proper advantage of it- that and of course, you have to be taller than the other nearby buildings. Still would be far nicer than street parking.

In reply to stuart in mn :

Aw E36 M3! Was it one of these Meyers NMG / Corbin Sparrows? I'd have bought one a long time ago if wouldn't have had to ship one 400+ miles.

Tom1200 said :

This us what I was looking for in my first post.......keep the posts coming as its interesting reading.

Anything specific off the top of your head, or stuff you want links on? I've got a HUGE interest in this kind of stuff too, if my first post couldn't show it laugh

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/26/20 1:50 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Regarding Blue Bird,  aren't they normally double the cost of Thomas or IH bus anyway? That Diesel engine and Allison transmission isn't cheap to begin with . Plus 7 miles per gallon is about the best the fleet will do in start and stop driving.   100+ mile range?  More than enough!  And as long as charging costs less than $30 a day the costs will quickly be in favor of EV We spend about $5000 for 9 month use of fuel per bus. Multiply that times the 100 big buses in our fleet, that's a half million dollars annually in fuel costs.  Put a set of solar panels on the garage and plug everything in!   Not to mention oil changes service and etc the an EV wont need
 

 Here up in the frozen Tundra of the North underground parking for apartment dwellers is normal in the nicer apartments. While a lot of apartment dwellers use Ube/Lyft  as their car in the hip converted warehouse sections of downtown.   Plus many if not most companies already have plug ins to help get cars started in our up to 40 below winters. 
 

Are there some apartments with on street parking only and long extension cords for winter use?  Yes. No nothing is perfect. But I can see where the city will put in curbside chargers in the future as demand grows. 
But yes, suburban homeowners will have another advantage over urban dwellers. As it is now I can walk down to my car during the dead of winter in my stocking feet and T shirt and do stuff comfortably. 

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
9/26/20 2:02 p.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:

In reply to stuart in mn :

Aw E36 M3! Was it one of these Meyers NMG / Corbin Sparrows? I'd have bought one a long time ago if wouldn't have had to ship one 400+ miles.

They could have been Sparrows, or at least something similar.  In any case I suspect they were a handful to drive on snow and ice covered streets.

 

Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/26/20 2:44 p.m.

I fall into an interesting place in this discussion with my background, a few years ago I was going to school for your typical Mechanical Engineering degree because being a car nut I wanted to work in the industry.  About half way through I switched gears and graduated with one of the first Energy Engineering degrees that could be found back in 2012.  I know the technology has made leaps and bounds in the last ten years, but I've got some knowledge of engines, power production, fuels, battery chemistry, solar, wind, etc.   Out of school I went to work for a diesel-electric locomotive manufacturer and now I work in the heavy duty truck industry.  I also own things like a Volt that has put down 70k trouble free miles, old muscle cars, and fun sports cars.

 

There is a balance to everything and right now we are in a stage of shifting the balance.  I don't expect to see any single solution but rather many different smaller players all combining to make the shift.

 

  • The GRM Angle

As for the future of GRM types, as the number of EV and Hybrid vehicles grows so will the resources to build fun cars and racecars.  One person I found documenting this well is Sasha Anis who has a youtube channel and has been featured on Speed Academy multiple times.  He has built some rather interesting vehicles like a fully electric Lotus Evora and a 700hp Hybrid 350Z racecar.  There is also a project he runs called Mountain Pass Performance modifying Tesla vehicles.  To me this means we will be able to build high horsepower, fun, track capable vehicles in the future.  There will be more software to make it all work, but look at it like the shift from carbs to fuel injection.  Now you have get an aftermarket tune on nearly any performance vehicle and alter the engine maps, transmission, modes, etc.  I don't expect this to replace ICE vehicles tomorrow but I would welcome their introduction.

 

  • Where EVs excel and where they aren't ready yet

EVs make a lot of sense for stop and go applications where they haven't been fully implemented yet - like the school buses and city transit buses discussed earlier.  Other places this makes a lot of sense would be mail delivery, trash collection, urban cargo delivery, etc.  Replacing the engines powering these types of vehicles would be a huge efficiency increase - ICE isn't best suited to stop and go.  Today EVs also don't make much sense for long drives where the need for power density is high like towing, 80k pound big-rigs, etc.  We don't have the technology and infrastructure to support this quite yet, but the work is underway. 

 

  • Power Generation and the Grid

As for power generation the costs for solar and wind along with other renewable sources are edging closer to being competitive with typical fossil fuels which will further their adoption.  The last few months under the pandemic has been an interesting time to watch as long held traditions in the energy market did very strange things like oil trading for negative prices.  Solar in particular is interesting because there is very little maintenance required and when using the sun your 'fuel' is effectively free.  I used to race at Toronto Motorsports park which is surrounded by wind turbines which felt pretty awesome.  I would expect to see a shift to a more decentralized type of power generation in the future as old coal plants die out or get too costly to keep online and within the emissions rules.  A great place for information in this regard is the US Energy Information Administration EIA.GOV.

 

  • Emissions Regulations

On the topic of emissions, as a general rule of thumb the larger and heavier the tool the more lax the emissions laws are on that item.  For example large low-speed diesel engines in cargo ships burn the nastiest fuel called bunker fuel that needs to be heated so that it can even flow.  And when you are in international waters there are no rules on what comes out the exhaust pipe.  But at the same time, consider there are fewer of these things compared to passenger vehicles.   Off highway machines are also looked at differently than on highway vehicles so there are a lot of variables to consider.  The graphic above from CAT shows the drastic changes that have occurred in the last 25 years for emissions regulations.  Each step required more development money, testing, and technology a lot of which had growing pains and reliability issues.  While that acceptable area keeps getting smaller there are other countries coming online that want the same things we have now and don't follow the same rules or use older standards.  

 

  • My Personal Take

I'd like to build a house with solar panels that generates most if not all of its own power, I'll drive my EV/PHEV for daily boring things, and keep a gas burner for fun on the weekends.   

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/26/20 3:17 p.m.

In reply to Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) :

Anyone can make an EV super car right now. It's more a matter of money than availability. 
 

I've looked into an EV swap for my fun cars, and always stop at the cost.  

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/26/20 3:22 p.m.

In reply to Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) :

Well said and laid out.  Logic dictates that the future will reward people who follow your plans. 
Solar while great is limited to daylight hours.  That shortage can be offset with wind. Modern rare earth magnet wind generators operate in a much slower breeze than typical gear driven wind generators. The surplus energy can be sold to neighbors without the foresight to invest using the existing power grid. 

My state like many states pays the generator last years rate and sells the power at current rates. The income while slight is pure profit.
 Also because of that diverse generational capacity. Very resilient. Power outage over there does not mean total power loss. further since power is used by your neighbors there is very little transmission loss whereas power generated at a distant plant will have very high loss. 
 

Having grown up around Offy powered sprint cars in my youth my fall back won't be gas powered but rather alcohol.   Since Methanol is so toxic I prefer my alternative in the form of E85 using ethanol. 

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