A tale of three lemons

Ok, so we're making an effort at Lemons New England next year. We have 3 available candidates for annihilation and Im looking for input pro/con for each. I'll start by listing the cars and what I see as the pros and cons then everyone can tell me to do something else instead.

1990 Toyota Celica - Base model 1.6 5 speed. $200 purchase price. Runs, drives, ugly. Pro - reliable, 4x100 bolt pattern for easy spare wheel/tire sourcing, cheap parts Con - FWD and underpowered

1981 Datsun 280z $100 Purchase price Not running, probably the fuel pump, will run with gas added directly to intake. Pro - RWD, decent power Con - Odd bolt pattern, harder to source spare wheels. Parts availability/cost

1988 Pontiac Firebird $400 Purchase price. 305 Auto, actually bought as a BABE rally car and will still be used for this so it has to survive BABE and the trip home to be considered Pro - V8, RWD Con - BS points guaranteed due to GM V8, auto, oh and it has 250,000 miles.

Really its just between the first two unless someone can really sell me on the firebird, but its a flagrant POS so probably not, but here's a happy pic of the heap.

id like two of the wheels off that firebird if ya dont run it

sector7 wrote: id like two of the wheels off that firebird if ya dont run it

Its being run by a british team in BABE, Im setting it up for them. Find me a set of steelies with good tires and we can make a deal. They just need wheels/tires to get them to new orleans.

The wheels are about the only thing on the car in good condition.

Gotta go with the Firebird....based solely on paint job alone.

JThw8 wrote: 1981 Datsun 280z $100 Purchase price Not running, probably the fuel pump, will run with gas added directly to intake. Pro - RWD, decent power Con - Odd bolt pattern, harder to source spare wheels. Parts availability/cost

Isn't the 280z a 4x114.3 bolt pattern? That's not so uncommon. It was used on lots of cars: Sentra, 240sx, Accord, Prelude...

JFX001 wrote: Gotta go with the Firebird....based solely on paint job alone.

LOL...yeah the brits want me to paint it up Knight Rider style (E36 M3e rider theme) for BABE but everyone is trying to talk them into keeping the "patina:

Salanis wrote: Isn't the 280z a 4x114.3 bolt pattern? That's not so uncommon. It was used on lots of cars: Sentra, 240sx, Accord, Prelude...

Granted not uncommon but not as easy to source as the 4x100 of the toyota.

pics of the other beasites

the 'yota

The 280

one other pro/con for the 280 is it has no title so its got no useful life as a street car anymore.

derekshannon wrote: In reply to JThw8: Z for the cool factor alone. I'd actually drive the Toyota as a dd! I wouldn't start a Lemons race with a car that's automatically going to come under fire by the judges. (the 'bird).

I agree on the bird, its just begging scruitny, and the fact that I have a garage full of parts here including a 383 stroker rated at about 425hp the temptation would be too much ;)

Not to mention its a slushmatic, has the least amount of money left in the budget and its a complete POS. and it has to make it to New Orleans and back first.

Right now its sensible (toyota) vs. sexy (datsun).....I need to work the budgets and let the team members decide...it is a democracy after all :)

If it's Strafford you are doing , then by all means just go with the most dependable car. Fast cars have little to no advantage there. Just reliable and fuel efficient

I am not up on the rules of LeMons but does the T-tops of the Bird and 280zx cause any issues reguarding saftey or rules about open top cars?

I am somewhat humored that you think it is better idea to drive the car with 250k miles on the clock across the country but then question its "reliability" in driving it around in circle. I think your actual term is "flagrant POS."

jrw1621 wrote: I am not up on the rules of LeMons but does the T-tops of the Bird and 280zx cause any issues reguarding saftey or rules about open top cars? I am somewhat humored that you think it is better idea to drive the car with 250k miles on the clock across the country but then question its "reliability" in driving it around in circle. I think your actual term is "flagrant POS."

T-tops would be welded shut with sheetmetal in either case. Not sure of the rules but Im sure of my own personal comfort zone and glass tops have no place on a racetrack.

The firebird is indeed a flagrant POS...but it is nicer than the last 2 cars I've campaigned in BABE, Cars which placed 1st in 07 and 2nd in 08 so Im used to dealing with POSs

But surviving a 3000 mile round trip and then doing Lemons may be a bit much to ask. Especially since our first BABE ride (2006) had a 305 and survived the round trip but blew out a few cylinder rings on the return trip and started consuming oil at a rate of about 1 qt per 100 miles.

I just have a better comfort zone on BABE having done it 3 years in a row. My personal team is abusing a 69 Caddy this year. Our team theme has always been that an american V8 will run like crap longer than most cars will run and we've proven it. Although our winning year (07) we did run an aircooled VW...which will run on 1 cylinder for 5000 miles if you ask it to*

*may be a slight exaggeration

Based on the pictures alone.....run the tractor

Tractors are cool

Failing that I'd say run the 'yota. Gheto low pressure turbo should be easy enough

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Based on the pictures alone.....run the tractor Tractors are cool Failing that I'd say run the 'yota. Gheto low pressure turbo should be easy enough

yeah, Ive been diggin the idea of a ghetto low pressure boost setup (not necessarily turbo, been eyeballing low pressure smog pump/supercharger conversions) But as someone else mentioned, I dont think this is about speed or power, just reliablity and survivability. I think a slow car that just keeps going, with a decent suspension will do fine. And hell none of us have ever seen track time so our goal is surviving, not winning.

The YOTA is Rumored to run fantastically ... a few years ago. Arrainged the tow for this weekend comming up. Will be able to confirm its driveability by sunday.

Friend had one of that generation Celica STs with the 4A-FE. With a set of decent shocks, those are remarkably well handling cars, and I always enjoyed driving it when we'd go on road trips. Not a power monster out of the gate, but still decently peppy.

Of the given options, it's what I'd run, but a lot of that is my knowledge of/bias for Toyotas.

Like I said Ive always wanted to hack up a smog blower SC, never had the chance until you mentioned boost. that or a more yard-worky solution.

definitely the Celica. easy to get camber, handle well....bulletproof. just keep you foot to the floor and turn.

The Celica is definitely a winner. Lemons is a war of attrition. FWD may be an advantage when you can use countersteer and power when someone with more mass is 'nudging' your rear quarter panels.

+1 on the Celica (but only if you pronounce it "Sell-eek'-ah.") We passed countless high-horsepower cars in a 90HP car, simply by waiting for the big heavy beasts to push way out and sneak up under them.

I say 'Yota as well, assuming it runs. Autotragic trannys with high mileage tend to go tits up pretty easy when you hold them in low cog for a bunch of miles.

The 280ZX could wind up being sorta pricey to fix, depending on the problem. BTW, on those old Z's there is a switch inside the vane air flow that won't allow the pump to come on until the flap moves. This means if the air intake hose is split or missing the vane won't move meaning the fuel pump won't run.

You can get a bit more top end snort out of the 'Yota by retarding the cam timing a fang at the camshaft. Used to do that on Fiat motors.

I just re-read the article about LeMons (their team ran a Camaro and it failed miserably) and going by the GRM advice given, the 'yota is the clear choice. Actually, it seems that any durable, FWD, fuel efficient car would be preferred. All of which the Camaro is not.

Another vote for the Celica. My wife had a 90 GT when we got married and it was a fun car. I think I remember Jackie Stewart saying that the GTS version of that car was the best handling FWD car when it came out.

Ours had the 2.2 in it but I sold that car with @280K on it and all I had to do to it was put starters in it.

Go with a simple . A 5 speed is a must. To many Autos fail during the race.

You will want to do a timing belt, clutch and check the cooling system. Plus make sure the brakes can take hours of track time.

B

I like the Firebird. It would be cool to run the BABE and then run it in Lemons. Plus, both events in the same car would probably be a first. Whatever you decide, don't touch that paint ... it's perfect.

We are running our 93' Mustang 2.3 liter in BABE, then staying in New Orleans for Lemons...join us...you know you want to.

(oh, and run the celica)