This sucks so much. So very sorry not just for the 70 year old and his family, but especially for the instructor and his family. Let's also not forget the poor volunteers who put the event on and are dealing with this.
Thoughts and love to all involved.
I instructed once at Waterford and had a student with a then brand new 996 C4. He terrified me so much I will never sit right seat again.
You know with health problems becoming one the major causes of motorsport crashes, heart rate monitors being cheap things people connect to their dataloggers now, and most cars now having ABS, I wonder why nobody's made a "heart attack switch" for track cars. If the heart rate monitor sees your ticker doing very unhealthy things, it slams the brakes for you, improving the odds that the only problem the paramedics will have to deal with is a heart attack.
In the future as EEG headsets become more advanced and less intrusive, that could be tied in as well, slamming the brakes if you have a seizure or lose consciousness for some reason. It could also tie into autonomous driving features to tell the car to take over and drive you back to pits rather than just slamming the brakes.
In reply to Blaise :
Something similar happened at the Glen a few years ago during Vintage Festival parade laps. The owner/driver of a Cobra replica had a heart attack at the end of the front straight and never made turn one. While parade laps are at far from race speeds, it's still not uncommon for cars to get up to some healthy speeds depending on the number of cars and how spread out they are. IIRC, the passenger was young and well belted in and survived with minor injuries.
I imagine many people don't realize how much physical exertion is required in high speed driving.
The idea of a HRM-kill switch has some merit, but would obviously depend a lot on the car. At the same time, my experience with HRM reliability has been somewhat less than great, so I'm not sure I would be willing to count on one that could risk slamming on the brakes while in the middle of a pack of cars moving at high speeds. Better conditioning and physician approval is probably a more realistic solution.
Really sad to hear this. Hope the survivors all fully recover.
I had read somewhere that last sessions were the most dangerous. At the only hpde I've attended I felt I was a little tired after 4 sessions. I skipped the last session and went home. Like others have said the fatigue is real especially if you don't do it regularly.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Maybe in the future, but I've worked on several wearables and the latency is much too great (even on a chest strap) and most of the algorithms work on "smoothing" since the signal you get is imperfect. It might be able to give you a warning if it starts sensing erratic rhythm, but you definitely wouldn't want it hooked into your car directly. I could see something like this in the future, but it's going to need a better sensor array than what most consumer grade products are using now. I dare say in the nearish future of self driving cars - there will be some "intrusive" technologies that will aid in these types of situations. Just check out the recent suite of driver aids that come from "Honda-sense," "Subaru EyeSight," and friends. Lane departure assistance, auto brake pedestrian avoidance, etc.
Here's a snippet at how effective just the first generation of these tech packs are:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170626/MOBILITY/170629850/subaru-safety-pedestrians-seniors-japan
"Subaru models equipped with EyeSight had 84 percent fewer accidents than non-EyeSight vehicles, comparing fiscal year 2010 and fiscal year 2014, Subaru says. EyeSight-installed cars also had 49 percent fewer pedestrian accidents."
I'll never forget the feeling I had driving up to my first touristenfahren accident... between Kesselchen and Mutkurve there was a Z4 that got wide hit the barrier, rolled onto it's roof and skidded like that for between an 1/8th and a 1/4 of a mile up the hill before hitting the opposite barrier where the track bent right, and in doing so rolled back wheels-up (afaik). Speeds in the rental Swift were in the 180kph range. Seeing that helped me, in a bunch of ways, to realize the risks that I was taking on... and to approach them with open eyes.
Then again, instructing as it's currently implemented, removes a lot of the capacity to fully evaluate the risk you're taking on.
I'm biased, so I don't want HPDE to get into a safety spiral where to be on-track you have to have certain safety equipment. But, I am aware enough to suggest that there is room some kind of graduated system of safety requirements based on vehicle speed potential... and possibly safety system age.
My condolences to the driver, and my sincerest hopes for the instructor, and my sympathies pimpm3 for the trauma that's walked uninvited into your life. Thank you for sharing it with us, though, so that we might all grow from it.
Blaise said:I've always said that when I die I hope it's going into Turn 1 at age 70. I'd rather go out doing something I love than in any other way. I'm glad this guy took his Porsche out to have fun with it. He could very easily have had the same event happen on the road where an innocent bystander could have been hit, without medical/heli coverage.
...An unfortunately all-too-common type of egocentric rationalization that takes inherently elevated risk activities and unwittingly makes them even higher risk for everybody else.
Jack Baruth wrote and article in R&T a few years ago about how the instructor corps is getting smaller due to the speed of cars today.
Whenever I hear of an accident like this, it really makes me question whether I want to continue instructing. For the most part all of my students have been respectful and good listeners and I've never felt in jeopardy. This particular accident illustrates how that doesn't really matter sometimes....
Tragic for both families and I hope the instructor pulls through with minimal impact
We had a guy die at Seattle back in the 70s. Went straight off the last turn before the straight, didn't hit anyone else. Turns out he'd had a heart attack and expired while driving.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking - hey, if you have to go and you can do it whie doing something you love without hurting anyone else...
Certainly not the case here where two people had their lives changed (and ended) in a moment. That sort of thing makes you stop and think about just exactly what we are doing and the possible, albeit not probably consequences.
Adrian_Thompson said:This sucks so much. So very sorry not just for the 70 year old and his family, but especially for the instructor and his family. Let's also not forget the poor volunteers who put the event on and are dealing with this.
Thoughts and love to all involved.
I instructed once at Waterford and had a student with a then brand new 996 C4. He terrified me so much I will never sit right seat again.
I had a similar experience with a guy in a Viper. You have to really love doing that in my opinion. I feel for all involved. Hopefully the instructor recovers.
NOHOME said:Going to toss out a thing here...
I am married to an ICU nurse. One of the things that I have had to learn to deal with is a regular diet of unfair events that end and destroy peoples life's. Part of my job is to help her deal with these kinds of events on a regular basis.
You can't make sense of it, make it better or anything else. Enjoy what you can for as long as you can.
Pete
I understand this fully Pete. My wife works for an internist, my son is a Med flight paramedic and my daughter in law is an emergency room nurse. Holidays are sometimes like a group therapy session. My son in particular has seen things I hope never to dream about. It is difficult to know why these things happen sometimes. I won't go into specifics, but my son worked an event once where a young boy died in a horrific accident with a riding lawn mower. The mother wasn't home at the time and was killed in a car wreck going to the hospital. My point is, you wake up in the morning never knowing what the day will hold. We need to make the most of our days here and be sure to value what is most important in life.
Yes, definitely a tragic event. The instructor is a buddy--just saw him at the Rolex. If and when anything is released, it will come from the family. Right now, just hoping for the best.
docwyte said:Jack Baruth wrote and article in R&T a few years ago about how the instructor corps is getting smaller due to the speed of cars today.
Tragic. I hate to hear things like this and I hope the instructor makes a speedy recovery and prayers for both families.
I only instruct occasionally these days, and speed creep is part of the reason. Cars are much heavier and more powerful. While the safety factor has gone up, so has the sheer inertia.
I mostly get conscripted to fill in out of obligation to buddies when the HPDE org is frantically trying to find enough instructors to run a scheduled event.
I'm thankful for instructors -- it's a tough gig.
Completely unrelated to this event -- I think there is an opportunity to increase the standards for a motorsports physical. I had to get a physical for my first HPDE years ago. Now many racing organizations don't require one.
Tragic, hope the instructor pulls through.
You could never get me to instruct, even though I'm thankful for the instructors I've had over the years.
I'm actually going to try AutoX this year because of the risks associated with HPDEs. I have tracked multiple times since I wrecked my sportbike at a track day 11 years ago. But I'm always reminded thats why I still don't walk quite right after coming off the motorcycle around 65mph.
I don’t know if it’s old age or my employer beating safety into my head, but this is pretty much I gave any thoughts of racing, getting a pilot’s license or buying a motorcycle.
I hope the instructor pulls through.
docwyte said:Jack Baruth wrote and article in R&T a few years ago about how the instructor corps is getting smaller due to the speed of cars today.
I've been saying for years that there should be more tracks made that land somewhere between a Kart track and a traditional road-racing one. If you could take the real estate that a major track currently uses and double the number of turns, you might have more accidents, but at lower speeds, and potentially the track would be more entertaining as well.
One other thing: thank god for HANS.
docwyte said:Jack Baruth wrote and article in R&T a few years ago about how the instructor corps is getting smaller due to the speed of cars today.
A friend of mine quit as a PCA instructor for this reason. And not only are cars getting faster, they're getting very cheap. Something like a C5 Z06 is insanely fast and only ~$15k. He said there were just too many guys who didn't know what they were doing but could buy themselves into cars that could easily be doing 150 when the driver ran out of track, talent and ideas all at the same time.
I'm hoping the instructor pulls through, and am very sorry to hear about the driver.
That's one of the reasons I've been instructing less in car and been doing more class room stuff. If I do in-car, I've been looking pupils with slower cars when instructing at HPDEs. Had a couple of "I don't care what you're saying" students in fast cars in the past...
In reply to pimpm3 :
I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s when it was normal for a professional driver a week to be killed. Don Skogmo was killed right in front of the pit entry at Elkhart Lake I was in the pits.
Later that year some men I’d met the year before had their driver was killed in a sprint car accident at the state fair where I was working.
Racing back then was called a blood sport.
Today it’s rare when death reaches out, rare but happens. We all morn then.
In reply to Sonic :
Paul Neumann raced at LeMans in his 80’s and ran TransAm later than that. I raced in the Bahamas with a Gentleman who was 88 and drove his MGTC special down from New England.
Both had physicals and were well experienced with the stress of racing. When I race my heart rate goes down, as did Dale Earnhardt sr.
I suspect new and inexperienced drivers are at a greater risk of heart issues than experienced drivers.
frenchyd said:I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s when it was normal for a professional driver a week to be killed.
Today it’s rare when death reaches out, rare but happens. We all morn then.
Professional drivers being killed in the pursuit of their passion is one thing. It's still tragic and we need to work to eliminate those deaths. Having an instructor perish or get seriously hurt when they are in a student car is something completely different. Over half of my on-track instructors are fathers and more often than not grandfathers. They aren't young men chasing a dream, they are there enjoying a hobby. These are experienced patient people and they are most often there on a volunteer basis or if they get paid at this level, it's peanuts. I'm not sure what the answer is. How do you tell a new student that has worked to become successful and purchased their dream 911 GT3 or Z06 Corvette that they need to go home and buy something slower? I will probably start instructing when my kids are grown because I love the challenge and giving back to the community, but I'm going to need to think hard about this in the mean time.
Driven5 said:...An unfortunately all-too-common type of egocentric rationalization that takes inherently elevated risk activities and unwittingly makes them even higher risk for everybody else.
Perhaps, but not in my case. I've got the slowest car you can buy with the most amount of safety gear I can afford, and it's equal for both left and right side.
What I'm saying is that yes, track activity is risky - I'd much rather take that calculated risk, buy as much safety gear as possible, train, move up in speed (and vehicles) slowly, than to just not do it. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I'm not just saying YOLO, WIDE OPEN TIL YOU SEE GOD IN MY Z06.
In reply to Blaise :
If you race a formula car, Formula Ford, Formula Jr, Formula V, etc don’t have room for instructors. Yet somehow they manage.
Perhaps an instructor in the car is a risk that shouldn’t be taken?
Very sad for the driver's family, but you know he was doing something he loved.
Really hope the instructor pulls through - but you know he was doing something he loved as well. We all sign the waivers constantly, we know it is inherently dangerous, but we enjoy the hobby/sport so much that we still take that calculated risk. Instructors love the hobby/sport so much that they want to share their knowledge with others to improve their enjoyment.
I don't think I would say that we should all avoid instructing out of fear that the guy might have a heart attack. Yes, be cautious of the new guy in the Z06, but I'd be willing to be that statistically, our track events are safer than public roads.
In reply to Pete Gossett :
I had a similar experience at Gingerman Raceway during a 3 day XX event.
Anyone could show up, pay their $ and give it a go in a supercar. I'll never do that again, plus I'm done instructing this year. It's just not worth the risk when I have 3 kids and a wife counting on my income and support.
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