A worse tire for better average performance? Exocet - tire heat issues

Hey all,

I was pondering on the tires I'm going to run on the exocet this coming season. Last little bit I was running r888r, but with mixed results. In the majority of the track work I did they never came close to temp. I'm moving to a 15x9 wheel this year and it opens up the selection some. For an Exocet I'm wondering if running a 200tw street tire would yield more consistent results than a more aggressive track tire that never gets up to temp. I've been recommended a similar approach to dealing with brake lockup, because the car is so light and uses so little brakes, backing up to a less aggressive pad should help.

Whatcha think? 

Hankook RS4 is likely the droid you are looking for. The R888r is old tech at this point, and really isn't that fast anymore.

I suspect you are on the right track. I've noticed that amazing cars are total crap on cold race tires. I guess it depends on whether you want your tires to slow you down because they're cold, or because you as a driver are faster than what 9" wide 200tw tires on a 2<000 lb car will get you.... 

RS4's take a ton of heat to get up to temperature.  I would be looking at RE-71's.

In reply to Vigo :

I'm a good driver, not a great driver - but I'm more interested in getting stable lap times and stable performance to focus my driving improvement. Hopefully that'll lead me to be a great driver. And the car is 1550lbs ;) 

In reply to ShinnyGroove :

I was actually looking at V720 - I don't see RE's in 225/45r15. I'm open to options. I was using r888r's because they were one of the only non-slick options in the wheel size I was using.

Is there a reason you have to run 200tw tires?  

With the kind of weight you are moving around, some decent R compound tires will last for a long time, and give you oodles of grip.

ShinnyGroove said:

RS4's take a ton of heat to get up to temperature.  I would be looking at RE-71's.

That has not been my experience running them on various cars in champcar.

They CAN take a ton of heat (meaning abuse) and will still grip well.  However, if the ambient temp is above about 50f, they will only take about 1 lap to start working.

Also, can you run the gripper tires and just get a narrower width? 

From the testing I have done (on track, not autocross) wider tires aren't necessarily faster.  They just put up with heat better and take longer to get to temp.  Why not try some r comps in a slightly narrower size?  Same grip, will get to working temp faster.

In reply to alfadriver :

No particular reason I can't run R's, but the r-comps seem more moody and take temprature extremes less well. I.e. the 200's from what I've read, work pretty well and are fairly consistent without being too worried about over-heating etc (they're a street driven tire). I have considered more narrow tires as well, but I have a set of 15x9 wheels and a set of 13x8 wheels on hand - hence the sizes I was looking at. I was considering going to a7's on the 13's, but was worried about tire care (or lack of) making consistent running more difficult. 

collinskl1 said:

Hankook RS4 is likely the droid you are looking for. The R888r is old tech at this point, and really isn't that fast anymore.

The R888R is not the R888. It's only 3 years old in the US.

I've had more trouble overheating 200TWs than with getting R comps up to temp, personally.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In an exocet/catfish? From what I've gathered from others racing exocets, this is one of the problems that's fairly universal. The one guy I follow who TT's his v8 exocet regularly runs a7's on big tracks because r7's just wouldn't come up to temperature - and he was in AZ. 

collinskl1 said:

Hankook RS4 is likely the droid you are looking for. The R888r is old tech at this point, and really isn't that fast anymore.

About all the R888Rs are really good for (along with a lot of the sub-200TW but not r-comp offerings) is lasting longer...by never getting up to temp unless you're really really working them hard.

I would also say RS4s all the way, especially since they're one of the only 200TW that has a 245/15 which is what you want for a 9" wide wheel. They're a little sketchy in the rain (even by 200TW standards) but otherwise are pretty much the best balance between performance and longevity you can get for track use. I've never driven RS4s but the two sets of RS3s I've driven on track were remarkably consistent and predictable, which sounds like what you want to be able to really focus onimproving your driving.

Agree with the Accordion Folder - With a light little car like the Exocet, the Hoosier A7 would be the way to go.

In reply to jstein77 :

I'm trying to avoid the cost and maintenance that comes with r-comps, hence why I was asking about 200tw on a light car. 

Make more power and the tires will come up to temp faster.  Problem solved!

accordionfolder said:

In reply to alfadriver :

No particular reason I can't run R's, but the r-comps seem more moody and take temprature extremes less well. I.e. the 200's from what I've read, work pretty well and are fairly consistent without being too worried about over-heating etc (they're a street driven tire). I have considered more narrow tires as well, but I have a set of 15x9 wheels and a set of 13x8 wheels on hand - hence the sizes I was looking at. I was considering going to a7's on the 13's, but was worried about tire care (or lack of) making consistent running more difficult. 

Interesting- I never had that problem on my Alfa and the Kuhmo tires I used.  

accordionfolder said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In an exocet/catfish? From what I've gathered from others racing exocets, this is one of the problems that's fairly universal. The one guy I follow who TT's his v8 exocet regularly runs a7's on big tracks because r7's just wouldn't come up to temperature - and he was in AZ. 

I've never overheated 200TWs on an Exocet but I've also never failed to get a set of R comps up to temp in one. I've also spent a bunch of time on cars with very similar power/weight ratios even at 900 lbs heavier. I used to run 205 RA1s on a 1200 lb Locost and they were definitely better than the 200TWs of the time. My warm-up laps were faster than those done by people in heavier cars, but I could get them up to temp in a 1 mile lap.

This is also old data - but the RA1s outlasted the RT215 Azenis quite dramatically. It resisted heat-cycling in a way that the 200TW tire could only dream of. So if you're having trouble with moody r-comps, maybe you have the wrong r-comps :) The R888R is usually pretty friendly, the R888 was less so. I've also had good luck with the Toyo RR.

I race a 1600lb car and I've never experienced this but I'm also running a 185/60-13 tire. Additionally I've got a number of laps in a friend's exocet and never encountered this issue, he uses his Spec Miata tires on the car, granted I tend to carry a lot of corner speed than most people.

I vintage race and most of the cars are 1600lbs or lighter and I can't recall people having this issue, even new drivers. In my might something isn't right; tire pressure, width etc.

Nothing wrong with 200TW as Keith pointed out he's never overheated them, they'd last forever and you could focus on driving.

I'd lean towards going to a narrower tire as with the wider tires your also dragging around more weight than you need to.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Hmmm, I seem to be the only one having problems with tire temps here. I run good times on my local tracks (i.e. I'm definitely not the slowest thing out there), but when I come off the track or check in the hot pits the temps are even across, but way lower than they should be with the pyrometer. This was with 225 r888rs btw. 

I think I'll give the 200tw's a go and see what happens, worst case I can use them for street driving with the exocet. They're much cheaper than the r-comps new for me 

I should have asked this earlier, what size rim and tire are you using now? Also what are the tire temps and what is the pressure cold and hot?

If you've stretched a smaller tire (say 205) onto a wide (9") wheel it will have an effect on the sidewall that may be causing your issue.

I run a Hoosier bias ply (Vintage TD) that's the equivalent to 185/60-13 on a car that's 1762lbs with me in it and depending on which motor I'm using is making 80whp (1204cc) or 99whp (1508cc).

The smaller tire is shorter (lower gearing) as well as being 3lbs lighter per tire than the next size. My underpowered car needs all the help it can get. Coming form racing 125cc GP bikes I tend to go with the smallest tire possible that provides the needed grip level.

accordionfolder said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Hmmm, I seem to be the only one having problems with tire temps here. I run good times on my local tracks (i.e. I'm definitely not the slowest thing out there), but when I come off the track or check in the hot pits the temps are even across, but way lower than they should be with the pyrometer. This was with 225 r888rs btw. 

I think I'll give the 200tw's a go and see what happens, worst case I can use them for street driving with the exocet. They're much cheaper than the r-comps new for me 

I wonder if what you are seeing is that the combination of a) open wheel, and b) large tire for weight... means that the tire is cooling down faster than expected on your 'in lap' ?

My brother and I both run Nitto NT-01s. His are on an LS3-powered Locost, and mind are on a mid-engine Locost. Both cars weigh about 1700 lbs with around 430 hp.

Short story, he's a better driver than I am and has no problem getting his  tires up to temperature, while I only get close. What I'm saying is that maybe the OP should consider a driving class, preferably one where you use your own car. I say this as someone who needs to do the same, so not throwing stones.

In reply to kb58 :

I'm at 170 hp, 1700lbs w/driver  - I've run 2:25's at NCM (a track that's turrible for a car that only hits 108 on the super long straights - my stock MS3 has a better straight line speed at the big end). The best I have recorded is a 2:27. i.e. I'm not **that** slow - yeesh. ​​​​​​

https://timetrials.scca.com/events/1992975/event_sessions/overall

I believe the second segment was the grandfull course to get a sense of average times.

I think you're west coast, so maybe makes more sense - I was good for a sub 2 at Sonoma in my bone stock Mazdaspeed3. 

I would recommend NT01s.

They are the most consistent tire from moderately warm through the end of the session IMO, and if you have issues getting them up to temp try to drive faster. :-)

Although I am still at the "hoon around for 30 minutes" stage and have yet to progress to the "spend the next 30 min learning how to drive better" stage, so take my input with a boulder sized grain of salt.

Exocets seem to hit the aero wall starting about 100-105 mph.......I feel your pain.

As for your driving, from an instructor standpoint the only thing I saw was a missed apex and spot where you turned in a bit early...........but those should put more heat in the tires. Your inputs are very smooth and you appear to be very methodical in your approach. 

It is possible you're just not quite aggressive enough to get the tires all the way up to temp but from an instructor standpoint I'd not want to encourage more aggression as you look to be really smooth. You have nice slow hands, you come off the brake pedal very progressively and don't stab the throttle so I'd hate to see you mess that up.

My thought is it's something in the car set up that doesn't quite work for you, beit it tires to wide or wheels etc.

So what kinda tire temps are you seeing?