ncjay
Reader
5/12/12 11:27 a.m.
The Deltawing. It's innovative, ground-breaking, unusual, and many other adjectives. I am glad the car got built and is getting a chance to run at LeMans. Everyone involved in making this car a reality deserves a huge bag of kudos. Even if this car goes to LeMans, leads every lap, and wins the race - then what? Who will let this thing race in their series? Only viable answer to me would be the ALMS, and then even if they welcome the car in their series, who would buy it and race it? I might be wrong here, but even if this car is a huge success, I don't see much of a future for it. Can you change my mind?
Well, the ACO is looking for a lower energy use alternative, and since they are the one who is originating the whole development of this car, I'd say that they will be looking for a good endurance alternatives that uses less energy, and is still as fast as a P1 car.
It very much depends on how it runs at LeMans.
I don't think it's a matter of who would buy it, it's a matter of who accepts it as a competetive car that is allowed to run. From what I have read about the car, the cost of running it is considerably lower than a normal P1- much, much less fuel and many fewer tires. As long as it's fast, people will come.
One additional benefit- the tub is a derivative of a former P1 car. So since there are P1 and P2 cars that are available, and manufacturers are already out there, the core of the car is already essentially done.
It's very cool.
If you have the options, there have been some good articles about the car in Racecar Engineering as well as the most recent GRM. Good stuff.
It's also not just about this particular car. It's a testbed for technology. Who knows how and where it will be adopted.
Have the test sessions to date released any lap time data?
I think the car has been tested at several circuits in the UK. I don't remember seeing any comparative lap time data.
Still looking for the answer to "....but will it turn...?"
Rog
carguy123 wrote:
It's also not just about this particular car. It's a testbed for technology. Who knows how and where it will be adopted.
What technology? While I'm a big fan of the idea, the only remotely alternative tech on the car is the front tires. The rest of the concept is using no wings, using the body as downforce, ultra light, low frontal area/drag, and a mass production engine. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here....
Having seen the videos of the tests, it appears to turn just fine, and just and designed.
The one other question I have for the car- why Nissan and not Renault? ACO is French, Nissan is part of Renault- so ultimately, the approval came from Renault over Nissan. I wonder if it's similar to the reason that they are actually Nissan Europe and not Nissan- to avoid blame if it fails. Engine wise, I just don't see that happening- 300hp out of a 1.6l turbo DI isn't exactly that hard. Not easy, no, but IMHO, not exactly a major engineering challenge.
To be honest, I didn't like the concept for Indy, and was unsure of the idea for LeMans, but reading the engineering articles and seeing it lap- I think it will be cool. For sure, I, 110%, hope that they do really well. Make it 24 hours!!!!
Yes there is technology involved. As I understand it it is a rear steer like your zero turn lawnmower on top of the normal steering of the front wheels.
carguy123 wrote:
Yes there is technology involved. As I understand it it is a rear steer like your zero turn lawnmower on top of the normal steering of the front wheels.
Not that I have read. 70% of the weight is on the back tires, and most of the braking is on the back tires, but every article I've read is that steering is from the front. Tiny little steering rack.
Even if it were rear- steer, I'm not sure how that is unique tech- 4 wheel steer and rear steer has been around for decades, and most modern traction control systems are capable of vectoring torque from wheel to wheel.
There's nothing really new on the car- it's just a sum of a whole lot of parts that have been around for a good decade or so. Many of which have been in mass production as well.
I thought they had some vectoring voodoo going with the back tires in turns (like adding inside rear braking in turns) . Read it somewhere.....
Kj
There's no question the car will turn. The question is, how well. Would you want to go through one of the kinks at 185mph with no downforce, and only a 40" wide track on the front wheels?
ncjay
Reader
5/12/12 2:57 p.m.
The car by itself is not very technically advanced. It's main claim to fame is very light weight and small frontal area. It's supposed to be able to do with 1.6 liters and 300 hp what other race cars can do with 700 hp. And yeah, all the steering is done at the front. One of the articles I read used a sledgehammer as an example. Lay a sledgehammer flat on the floor. The light end will stay on the ground and is easy to move around while the heavy end provides most of the downforce. I think Nissan stands to gain more good PR out of this than anyone else, unless the engine lets go 10 laps into the race.
The question I have is could it beat a same weight same horsepower traditional car. It's significantly lighter than what they allow normal lemans cars to be. If you developed a traditional low drag car the same way with the same weight and power how much if any advantage would it have?
racerfink wrote:
There's no question the car will turn. The question is, how well. Would you want to go through one of the kinks at 185mph with no downforce, and only a 40" wide track on the front wheels?
It does have downforce. It's body generated, and fairly far to the rear. Just no wings.
I'm sure it has a LOT more downforce than the cars going though the kink back in the 60's and early 70's.
If you look at the car dead on it looks to have normal frontal area, just farther back.
My tricycle never turned very well.
Even with front wheel drive.
Many Batman movies from the 80's and 90's say it will perform AWESOMELY. Where does Nissan get those wonderful toys?
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but I was just reading the article in the mag and I still don't understand how it could have any traction at the front. 40" track width? 4" wide front tires? 30% of the weight on the front wheels? No aero downforce on the nose? When did they repeal the laws of physics? Put it out on a track with a Formula Mazda (which has less horsepower) and let's see which one laps faster.
My question is: OK, I believe you when you state "it turns", but how does it handle at the limit?
jstein77 wrote:
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but I was just reading the article in the mag and I still don't understand how it could have any traction at the front. 40" track width? 4" wide front tires? 30% of the weight on the front wheels? No aero downforce on the nose? When did they repeal the laws of physics? Put it out on a track with a Formula Mazda (which has less horsepower) and let's see which one laps faster.
I think the idea is to put so much of the weight and braking on the rear tires that it doesn't need any traction at the front. The little front wheels are just there for pointing it into the corners and the rear wheels do the rest of the work.
I also heard the TGUK is making a deltawing "copy"
Raze
SuperDork
5/21/12 12:56 p.m.
I for one welcome our new Delta Wing overlords
I really hope it fails miserably. Then again Nissan is involved so I am not surprised it looks so stupid.
Salanis
PowerDork
5/21/12 2:12 p.m.
Problem with being that narrow at the front isn't so much having the grip to turn, it's having the stability, especially under braking, which is where you want to be during turn in. Seems tough to me.
And, sure, having the front end way less makes it easier to change the direction up front, but having all that weight on the rear will make the rear end not want to follow as easily.
I'd like to see the Deltawing succeed. I like it when innovative thinking challenges the status quo. Then we can leverage a new paradigm and create heretofore unknown synergies of epic proportions! It's what makes time travel possible.
In an era of cookie cutter, spec racing, I welcome this car.