Adding Insult To Injury?

This is really interesting to me. I never think about the fact that Hillclimbs here are on closed public roads here. Being from the UK originally I grew up with all hillclimbs being on private property. It was illegal to hold a competition on public roads (even closed ones) in England until a special law was passed in the mid 80's to allow the 'Birmingham Super Prix' street race to be held as part of the F3000 series (Super Prix as in Europe they are picky and don't throw the word Grand Prix as a suffix to every motorsport event, F1 only) That's why unlike a lot of the rest of Europe we didn't have tarmac rallies, they were all on private logging and forest roads for a long time. It does mean that most British hillclimbs are shorter than here, but many are safer, although by safe i mean safe by 1920's-1940's standard. I wonder if there would be interest in a permanent private Hillclimb facility here in the US?

Sorry but I think it's BS. If there is a entry fee, a yearly membership fee, and etc. the club should have insurance for stuff like this.

I can see being billed for intentional damaged (i.e. few years ago a track charged a a guy in a motorcycle road racing club for damage to asphalt due to a celebratory burnout in the pits...) but if it's a actually incident I think it's part of the clubs responsibility. BTW, the same motorcycle club (WERA) even has supplemental insurance in case you have to take a ambulance/heli ride which will pay for partially cover the expenses.

I can't fathom that some of you think it's actually par for course, especially if it's racing on tracks vs. public property like hill climbs. I wouldn't spend a dime with a trackday/racing org. that sends me a bill for hitting a safety device that is there in the event I need it in the first place. Crazy.

For those of you saying "it doesn't sound bad" - how many currently or previously road race?

In reply to MattW:

So the options for event organizers are:

1) File claims for ever minor incident with your event insurance provide, and subsequently get dropped like a bad habit.

2) Charge 1.5x your current entry fees to profit enough from each event to cover for every time a driver runs out of talent so that you don't have to bring insurance into it, which lowers event attendance, which subsequently necessitates charging 2x the current entry fees, which further lowers attendance, etc...

Which are you suggesting is the preferable alternative?

Driven5 wrote: In reply to MattW: So the options for event organizers are: 1) File claims for ever minor incident with your event insurance provide, and subsequently get dropped like a bad habit. 2) Charge 1.5x your current entry fees to profit enough from each event to cover for every time a driver runs out of talent so that you don't have to bring insurance into it, which lowers event attendance, which subsequently necessitates charging 2x the current entry fees, which further lowers attendance, etc... Which are you suggesting is the preferable alternative?

Are you speaking from experience?

There is obviously clubs out there that do this right and are still around. SCCA comes to mind.

I would even understand some sort of deductible but I guess you're alright with being handed a outright $82,000 armco bill? I mean it's bad enough you just might have written off your racecar and incurred all the associated expenses of crashing, then you have this on top?

Driven5 wrote: SCCA lists (zero deductible) "Damage to rented property" as part of their event insurance coverage. I'm guessing that not all organizations, especially smaller and more local ones with far more limited budgets/resources/history, can afford to do the same while also keeping entry fees reasonable.

This VERY interesting!

So now I wonder how NASCAR does their contract with a site like Watkins Glen. Who pays for the damage done during top level pro races? Does the track absorb it into revenue from the gate or does the sanctioning body pay some negotiated amount?

MattW wrote: I can't fathom that some of you think it's actually par for course, especially if it's racing on tracks vs. public property like hill climbs. I wouldn't spend a dime with a trackday/racing org. that sends me a bill for hitting a safety device that is there in the event I need it in the first place. Crazy.

Have you done any road races? Have you read the waivers you sign? I'm not being a dick - I mean it - I haven't read the waivers but have been present for bill presentation and read a couple different race series's statements about amounts billed for damage. (24 Hours of Lemons and American Endurance Racing.) Neither are SCCA events. But I'm not sure the SCCA clause quoted above means what people think it means. I'm not a lawyer, but it's entirely possible that "rented property" does not mean the track and safety equipment that is part of it. Is "rented property" capitalized? Is it defined in the document?

Even if SCCA does provide 100% insurance on the track and equipment, there are many race series that do not have the deep pockets and big name that the SCCA does and can not afford to pay what they do for insurance.

I've done 20+ endurance road races and would not be surprised to be billed if I hit the armco. I would not expect an $85,000 bill, but $460 would not phase me.

MattW wrote:

Driven5 wrote: In reply to MattW: So the options for event organizers are: 1) File claims for ever minor incident with your event insurance provide, and subsequently get dropped like a bad habit. 2) Charge 1.5x your current entry fees to profit enough from each event to cover for every time a driver runs out of talent so that you don't have to bring insurance into it, which lowers event attendance, which subsequently necessitates charging 2x the current entry fees, which further lowers attendance, etc... Which are you suggesting is the preferable alternative?

Are you speaking from experience? There is obviously clubs out there that do this right and are still around. SCCA comes to mind. I would even understand some sort of deductible but I guess you're alright with being handed a outright $82,000 armco bill? I mean it's bad enough you just might have written off your racecar and incurred all the associated expenses of crashing, then you have this on top?

Look, I hear where you are coming from - but those huge numbers are not typical, and most organizations pass the buck when it comes to damage. If you ball up your car and take 40' of guide rail with you in a BMW, PCA, EMRA, NASA, etc race... you get the bill. Not all tracks are as heavy handed as COTA. Summit Point just re-stacks the tires and dumps some sand. You might pay something if your car fire requres a repave or you smash a flagging tower. NJMP is not so friendly and will send you a $100 a bag bill for oil cleanup. Watkins Glen charges for parts and labor.

Bottom line... if your criteria for participation is zero liability beyond your own car - you have limited your participation to almost zero. If you want to W2W race cars on a real road course and not pay for armco your choices are limited to places with no armco or maybe the SCCA. Maybe, because they insure but might not make a claim. It's up to them. Read the small print. If the idea that you just crashed and you have to fix your car, maybe buy the other guy's car if it was a blatant bad move and also buy a couple $k in track fees surprises you - you would not be the 1st to flip out - but that is the reality. Be good at it. Don't crash. If you do - be ready to write checks. Racing makes you wear the big boy pants in more than one way.

In reply to MattW:

I'm not ok with being handed an $82k bill...Oddly enough, you'll also never see me driving at COTA.

I don't think knox mountain is rolling in money. Its a small group that struggle to put that event on every year. I actually thought it was done. And when you hit a concrete barrier (no post as we call them) they are all linked together. The repair probably consisted of a flagging crew and a couple hours plus travel time for a crane truck and crew to reposition as many as required to straighten the row out.

Considering the event was held on a closed off road, $464 actually seems pretty reasonable when you realize it's how much the city is charging, not just an inflated club cost. That was a pretty hard hit, and it took a while for them to move the barriers back to road safety position. At a relatively low cost level of racing, you break it you bought it is the norm, and I'd consider yourself rather lucky as I've seen similar hits end up costing a lot more in track repairs.

If I damaged someone else's property, I'd feel responsible to fix it. I'm surprised how many others in this thread feel different. If you didn't pay it, I'd tell you not to come back.

Insurance or not, you damaged it. They're not obligated to claim it on insurance, and would be foolish to do so for such a small amount. Instead of paying the lump sum are you willing to pay the increase in premiums if they do claim it? I already know the answer.

I'm not 100% on one side of the argument or the other here. I don't think the OP being asked to pay less than $500 is unresonable as it was a small event on a closed provate road. However, I don't think it's unresonable to expect the entry fee for a W2W race series on a privately owned facility that should be set up to handle damage to armco or tire walls as part of regular maintinacnce to have that covered by the entry fee and insurance, possibly with a resonable deductible.

My view:

US Hillclimb on closed private road, damage to city/township infrastructure = OK

UK Hillclimb on privatly owned dedicated facility with purpose built safety equipment and facilities to maintain it = expect it to be covered by insurance and entry fee

Nurburgring paid laps, which is technically a one way open to the public toll road. = Expect to pay for damage

Nurburgring when closed to the public for sanctioned racing = Should be covered by entry fee and insurance

Private race track for sanctioned W2W racing, time trials or similar = should be covered by entry fee and insurance

Private race track for non competition HDPE or similar = Well I haven't considered this before, but I think you're back to you break it you pay for it.

Private race track closed for testing purposes. i.e. not a track day, but not full on competition put on by the facility = should be covered by entry fee and insurance

Private race track closed for testing purposes. i.e. not a track day, but not full on competition rented by a team for private testing or by a group of teams = You break it you pay for it.

Private race track closed for testing purposes. i.e. not a track day, but not full on competition rented by a a race series (IMSA, Trans AM, F1, Indy car) = should be covered by entry fee and insurance

Not perfect, but seems workable.

It comes down to realistic expectations of a sanctioning body and the type / level of track activity. Note, I know that rally organizers often have to pay to grade and re-grade dirt roads before and after events. But that's a known before hand and factored into the entry fee as it's expected the roads will get torn up.

This brings me back to the Q I mentioned up thread. I wonder if there's a market for a privately owned and run Hillclimb facility here in the States?

atm92484 wrote: For those of you saying "it doesn't sound bad" - how many currently or previously road race?

I have done W2W racing with a non SCCA organization. Waterford Hills who manage and run their own one track series. I've also done UK Sprints and Hillclimbs all on privately owned facilities. I"ve had some offs, but never more than tearing up the grass (and ripping off bits of cars )

In reply to MDJeepGuy:

We're not talking about backing into a car in a parking lot. We're talking about paying to race at a facility designed for racing and something happens accidentally. I'll agree with Adrian's assessment above - if you're on a private track and you're W2W, there is no way you should be charged. I'm on the fence about private track and HPDE; if someone is being negligent (IE told to take it easy multiple times) then there is probably an argument for a fee. To me its all part of running a track. You're ultimately advocating golf courses charge $50 per divot, restaurants charge if someone gets sick, etc.

I still find it insulting that some tracks charge for oil dry. No one plans on blowing up an engine (totally different story if you were told to fix a leak and don't). Its an unfortunate part of the hobby and business. All you are going to accomplish by adding these "fees" is to chase away the average Joes. Last time I checked there are a lot more of them running than big dollar amateur "teams" that won't feel the pain from a several thousand dollar bill.

If the concrete barrier belonged to the city, paying something is fair ($500 seems a little steep but it probably is what it is). If the barrier was placed by the event organizers then its ridiculous to charge.

I've gotta say, I am overwhelmed by the amount of responses/critiques/valuable information! I have found a FORUM with the BRAINTRUST of the GRM family. I am slowly absorbing/cataloging every offering in the hopes of coming to an acceptable resolution. THANK-YOU and don't stop!

atm92484 wrote: You're ultimately advocating golf courses charge $50 per divot...

Divots on a golf course are like skidmarks on a racetrack. What about people regularly facing the wrong direction, with no way of knowing whether it was negligence or an innocent mistake, and driving a golf ball through a large-pane clubhouse window?...Or rolling their golf carts?

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atm92484 wrote: All you are going to accomplish by adding these "fees" is to chase away the average Joes.

And if the fees were already there, but it's mostly just those affected by it who have bothered to pay attention to it?

The event organizers and race tracks aren't going to be concerned about losing negative margin customers. It's not good business to spend thousands on an individual customer who will only ever bring in hundreds. Their only real concern would be with how many positive margin customers would also choose not to participate due to the total financial risk level, yet would have participated at a significantly higher price in exchange for a appreciably lower risk. What percentage of said Joes at a track day do you think spent a bunch extra to purchase private insurance coverage for their participation in the event?...And what percentage even really gave serious consideration to the sheer magnitude of the potential cost they could incur in an incident (especially beyond their own car) before deciding whether to enter the event or not?

I think there are two important takeaways here.

The first is that we should all really be reading and understanding the waivers we sign and the rule books for the sanctioning bodies that we race with.

The second is that running into stuff sucks on many different levels and really we should try and keep that a little closer to the front of our minds when we're behind the wheel of the race car. To be clear, I'm talking to myself here not the OP or anyone else in particular.

If a Place is built for Racing Then Barriers, are permenant and designed to stop or SAVE A CAR OR PERSON. Part of entry fee, A race on public roads, not designed for racing(the best kind)Need to be ready to absorb costs,Maybe up the cost of entry,But to nail an amature racer isn't right. I won't crash on purpose, I'd have to fix my car first,then wait for the Lawsuit. Round track racin doesn't play that way.

APEowner wrote: The first is that we should all really be reading and understanding the waivers we sign and the rule books for the sanctioning bodies that we race with.

And in many cases I do not think its written anywhere and you don't find out until it happens. I've raced on tracks that have charged people for damage; the waiver I signed said nothing about it. Maybe it had to do with the club? Maybe not?

What happens when someone punts you off of the track? This happened to someone I know and they got a bill. The track was told to take a long walk down a short pier.

Driven5 wrote: Divots on a golf course are like skidmarks on a racetrack. What about people regularly facing the wrong direction, with no way of knowing whether it was negligence or an innocent mistake, and driving a golf ball through a large-pane clubhouse window?...Or rolling their golf carts?

I would venture to guess golf courses have insurance for said window and I've never seen a clubhouse that you could hit accidentally. Rolling carts isn't part of playing golf - its part of being a drunk jackass. ;)

Driven5 wrote: The event organizers and race tracks aren't going to be concerned about losing negative margin customers. It's not good business to spend thousands on an individual customer who will only ever bring in hundreds. Their only real concern would be with how many positive margin customers would also choose not to participate due to the total financial risk level, yet would have participated at a significantly higher price in exchange for a appreciably lower risk. What percentage of said Joes at a track day do you think spent a bunch extra to purchase private insurance coverage for their participation in the event?...And what percentage even really gave serious consideration to the sheer magnitude of the potential cost they could incur in an incident (especially beyond their own car) before deciding whether to enter the event or not?

Except in many cases its a large club renting the facility. I'll be curious to ask about this and see how it gets handled from the club side. The real issue is no one ever has a big off just to damage their car. You're either getting punted or you had a mechanical failure. If I'm potentially on the hook for $83k then I'm not racing and three clubs have lost a member. If clubs don't have members then tracks lose a lot of business. You can only hold so many track days.

You say you want to participate in the same hill climb in 2017. Do you think they will let you if you don't pay? I can't imagine they will.

In all of my region's events, our insurance covers if you hit and break anything. If this is a Canadian event, they likely use the same insurance we do. We don't ask for repayment, even when a runway light was taken out.

Remember this massive Ferrari shunt

https://www.youtube.com/embed/tK9LAdUpLtk

I read through the whole discussion and findings on Ferrarichat and the event organizer said the track charged $10,000 to repair the fence although I can't figure out who paid it, the series or one or other of the drivers or if it was shared.