INDYCAR Racing uses 98% alcohol (2% gasoline to denature it so the mechanics don’t drink the tanks dry, oh and avoid paying the massive taxes due on booze)
NNASCAR uses 15% alcohol
Drag Racing uses both ethanol and methanol with strict rules about handling methanol there
There are websites with racing and E85
Race on E85. Com is one I’ve used in the past
Need to check difference between methanol and ethanol.
In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :
It’s real simple methanol is poison and ethanol is not. Well not in moderation.
methanol will make you blind with a little bit, leading to death if you drink a full glass of it.
INDYCAR, NASCAR, both use ethanol. Drag racing uses both with strict rules about handling methanol.
We ran methanol only or dirt late models...ETOH only used after the race.
I remember when the dirt modifieds ran methanol. You almost needed a gas mask while waiting in line for the next race. Then there was the clean up after the race. Nasty stuff.
We have been known to use plenty of alcohol to loosen up between race days. Kind of a Lemons tradition.
This thread is not what I expected based on the thread title.
I liked to get a bit blasted when I ran in the GRM Gran Turismo leagues. Less red mist and funnier comments that way.
methanol = "wood alcohol" - drink it and die
ethanol = "grain alcohol" - drink it and get drunk
Wisdom from the hippie era of the 60s.
In reply to HapDL :
What I was trying to do but got cut off was point out how good E85 is as a racing fuel.
The last racing gasoline I bought cost me over $9.00 a gallon. While I just bought E85 for $1.74
The web site Race on E85.com talks about using it with 14.0-1 compression ratio while someone else claims to use it at 16.0-1 equivalent ( by that I assume he’s talking about boost)
There are web sites for those who don’t know where to buy E85
Pump E85 is not a magical elixir, it's only regulated constraint is 15% gas (so it's not drinkable).
What grade of gas is not regulated. (my $5 says they don't use the best gas they have, they use the worst)
How high the water content is, is not regulated.
Every time you pull up to an E85 pump, you are rolling the dice as to what winds up in your tank.
This is fine for a passenger vehicle that has a flex fuel sensor.
However if you want to race and take full advantage of the E85 you will not be happy with pump fuel as it varies too much.
For race applications you will want fresh fuel from a sealed can for consistent power and jetting predictability.
You will also want to drain it between race weekends and put it back into that sealed container so it does not absorb water from the air.
Ethanol is delivered from the distillery in rail cars, the gas distributors do not have tanks for it they leave it in the rail cars stored on a siding.
The rail cars are not sealed and they breathe with the temp changes drawing in moisture.
The tanks at the gas station are not sealed and the ethanol picks up more moisture as it sits in that tank.
When we ran go karts alcohol was the only way to be competitive, carburetors were special if I remember right. McCulloch 91 b.
It was always easy to see who was running alcohol. After the race the carb would be frosted over.
Ovid_and_Flem said:Need to check difference between methanol and ethanol.
IIRC, after retuning, you'll make 10-20% more power on methanol than ethanol. It's like going from gas to E85, only more so.
In reply to bentwrench :well you have some things right some things sorta right and .....
When I bought my last tank of race gasoline at the track it was in a tank in the ground. The guy selling it swore it was just delivered. For so called fresh gas it had a pretty high percentage of water.
But water isn’t all bad. Helps reduce detonation. Cleans carbon deposits. Just off the top of my head.
As far as Jetting goes, modern systems adjust on the fly, I’m old enough that I still use my air density gauge and run it a bit in the pits to confirm that the number stamped on the jet reflects the actual number. I have borrowed jets when I show up without everything in my garage. Yes and I’ve even redrilled jets in a pinch.
And as far as draining it after every event it’s not methanol which yes you do have to drain because it’s corrosive enough that damage can occur.
Ethanol is usually pumped in the same lines oil is delivered. Separated the same way everything is separated, with a water plug.
Yes in a perfect world we all have out drums of fuel delivered and pay for the fuel the drum and delivery.
frenchyd said:In reply to HapDL :
What I was trying to do but got cut off was point out how good E85 is as a racing fuel.
While the ethanol hysteria has been in full force I've been trying to point out that it's actually a much better fuel than gasoline. Nobody cares. They just want to hate.
Alcohol is for drinking
Gasoline is for cleaning parts
Nitromethane is for racing!
(or so the wise t-shirt told me)
Gearheadotaku said:
Alcohol is for drinking
Gasoline is for cleaning parts
Nitromethane is for racing!
(or so the wise t-shirt told me)
I thought nitromethane was for parts replacement
In reply to ZombyCougar Woofencamp : tell them pump gas is 91 octane maybe in some locations up to 93 octane and costs about $3.00 a gallon while E85 is between 105-110 octane and cost about 1/2 of what gasoline costs
In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :
We used to run Methanol in the Flatheads on Oval Kart. Had to changed the oil with every run and changed the Diagram after ever race night.
In reply to Notchada75 : I worked on sprint cars that used methanol and that was some nasty stuff but it was significantly different from E85
I remember reading that one problem with nitromethane is that you can’t see the flames in case of fire. Seems like scary stuff.
As for E85, it seems great in theory. But (as others have already mentioned) you don’t necessarily know what you’re getting at the pump.
In the turbo F1 era, teams were running toluene mixed with gasoline. You can buy toluene reasonably inexpensively at paint and chemical supply shops to homebrew your own race fuel. Xylene is also a possibility, but I think toluene is a little safer.
IIRC E85 can legally be as much as 30% gasoline - it's hard to start, so it's often "watered down" a bit during the winter. That's why we always run flex fuel sensors and ECUs that can fine-tune the fuel and spark delivery depending on the actual ethanol content of what's running through the fuel lines.
You don't run E85 to save money, though - it's not 50% of what gasoline costs around here. More like 75%, and you use more of it. But it does looooove boost. Makes the dyno room smell nice, too.
I have been known to carry some toluene in paint cans with me to the track just in case. I can tell you that upending a Sherwin Williams can into your gas tank will get you some really weird looks at a track day.
In reply to LanEvo : are you a no budget limited racer or performance guy? If so you are right you should always buy your fuel in sealed drums or cans. Because gasoline has the same variables.
E85 doesn’t cost enough is it’s only real problem. We are trained that good costs more and fuel that is cheaper must be bad.
The most expensive Gasoline has 91 octane (maybe 92 or 93 in some rare places) while ethanol has 105-110 octane depending on it’s variables.
Yes more is required, depending on your vehicle It will get 10-20% worse mileage if properly adjusted for.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well said! You don’t run E85 to save money but because it helps make power! This magazine’s article showed almost 10% improvement over race gas. In an otherwise pretty stock engine.
(Please read the article for exact details)
I’m Lucky, I live in the corn belt and a good number of stations carry E85. Prices vary by over 40 cents a gallon, remarkably the lowest priced ones seem to have the best fuel!
In reply to LanEvo :What am I missing? I watch top fuel dragsters shoot flames out their pipes even during the day!!
I know NHRA went to only 90% nitro a while back but even in the days of 100% you could see the flames.
I do know alcohol burns without visible flames but the gas in E85 seems to make the flames plenty visible
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