David S. Wallens said:So, NC Miata for this new category. Which engine, which transmission? Do we care? Hmmm. And what about a roll bar?
as an "explicit" fyi: I'm taking David & JG's 'sublte hint', and walking away from this thread
David S. Wallens said:So, NC Miata for this new category. Which engine, which transmission? Do we care? Hmmm. And what about a roll bar?
as an "explicit" fyi: I'm taking David & JG's 'sublte hint', and walking away from this thread
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
Just adding another possible chassis to the conversation. Heyward already said that SSC was already in as is. So, what else to add to the mix of candidates for other classes? NC? Some kind of Mustang? I have heard non-S Cayman mentioned. Some kind of later Civic Si? Four-cylinder Supra? Elantra N? GTI?
Sounds like SCCA is open to classes for a roadster, a muscle car, a front-driver and something a bit aspirational. These would join the already existing SSC class for the BRZ and FR-S.
In reply to Carrera :
Nice, and one of the few Spec car proposals that I would fit in. But there is already a racing series for Crown Vic's, I can't remember if I read about it on GRM or Hagerty, which limits the availability. Someone else mentioned an M2, what would happen once all, what 500, of those are used up? Not much of a series.
Tom1200 said:David S. Wallens said:A related question: How do you keep people from being so competitive?
If it's predominately geared towards local competitors that will cut down on it a lot.
The SCCA has to ask itself how many people will actually run the same car nationally in Solo, Rally-X and Time Trials?
What's the goal; bringing new and or retaining existing members?
I know how I would structure the class; the mods would be all suspension based and relatively mild. Pretty much what you deemed OEM+. My though is this allows a local competitor a chance to do a variety of events in their area.
Also unless there was a large outcry for it to be national I would make it regional only. 95% of the membership never goes to a national event.
At most local events a really good driver in an average car can still be competitive.............this eliminates the need to have the car of the month.
I could run my local autocross and time trials, then travel out of town to do some Rally-X. The concept is brilliant but it will only be so if it doesn't turn into a wallet waving contest.
Our Chapter was started (largely) by a person whose competitive drive was focused on going to Nationals and getting others ready to go to Nationals. At one point he wanted to have going-to-Nationals-only drivers schools.
I asked why are we trying to put this effort into something that less than 10% of our participants year over year have done? Why not do things that increase local participation and enjoyment, and let the few who are driven to the top find their own way? He was locked into the silo with the other top drivers IMO.
I've gone several times, not because I have a chance to win a jacket, but because of the overall experience. Most won't even get as far as I have. I think that you have to support the larger fan-base first, like a farm system in baseball feeding in prospects. We're seeing a drop off in attendance, down 50% in two decades, because of driving distance/loss of venues, less focus on the car culture among younger drivers, and a host of other problems that make recruiting difficult. And the Spec classes are definitely for those who have been doing this for a while and who relish the ideas of certainty in rule-set, lower expenditures than more modified classes, and tight competition. So Spec whatever is a retention tool, not a recruitment tool.
A car that is good at autocross won't excel at RallyCross. If I was in a Spec class that /could/ also run RC, then I'd try it, it looks like a hoot. But I'm not changing suspension out for a weekend in the dirt.
I’d agree that I see this can serve as a retention tool.
For someone like me–autocrosser since 1992–it makes some sense: “Hi, I’d like a competitive autocross car that won’t require a ton of development nor be quickly rendered uncompetitive by a later addition to the class and–the other biggie–I’d like to use that same car in other venues, especially as we have been having some issues with local autocross sites.”
Why not a Street Touring car? Could also work but also consider development costs, finding that unicorn and potential class reorgs.
Why not a Street-class car? Likely higher buy-in, lower development costs, greater chance of new replacing old.
Why not an XS-class car? As I have learned, someone will always make more horsepower.
One thing I like about this new proposal: I know that the car will be competitive next year–same shocks, same tires, same everything. I kinda like that future-proofing. I’m now looking at entries for this year’s Solo Nats: 68 for Solo Spec Coupe plus another 13 for SSCL. (Someone can check my math, but I believe that’s the second-biggest class for Nationals.)
This doesn’t mean that other classes go away. Just saying that I do dig this format. I was there when Street Touring started–just for fun, right?–but look where it has progressed.
So, yes, still rather intrigued here....
In reply to David S. Wallens :
I'm hopeful; off the shelf everything with a set tire should cure the stupidly of custom valved shocks and tire du jour.
I'm still reluctant about it being a national class though.
Tom1200 said:In reply to David S. Wallens :
I'm hopeful; off the shelf everything with a set tire should cure the stupidly of custom valved shocks and tire du jour.
I'm still reluctant about it being a national class though.
What chassis are you thinking for this new class?
David S. Wallens said:Tom1200 said:In reply to David S. Wallens :
I'm hopeful; off the shelf everything with a set tire should cure the stupidly of custom valved shocks and tire du jour.
I'm still reluctant about it being a national class though.
What chassis are you thinking for this new class?
My personal pics would be either NC Miata or Honda Fit.
While I am a RWD guy at heart the Fit makes sense to me becuase there's room to haul stuff to events.
Again I really like the concept a lot and I also like that they are moving slowly on it.
I'm also adamant that the mods are shocks, sway bars and exhuast. Also any wheel that is the same size and weight as the factory alloy wheel.
In reply to Tom1200 :
OEM Fit wheel is 15x6. Better to adopt the SpecMiata wheel rule of "any wheel 15inch diameter, maximum 7inch wide, and minimum 13#s" (iirc)... let's you tap into an existing wheel market and mount up the common 205/50R15 tire sizes.
would you limit it to the GD3 Fit? GE8? Or have a parity balance to allow the GD3 be even with the GE8 to have a bigger pool of chassis? Would there be an allowance to let SundaeCup cars compete in an SCCA "Club Fit" class?
Sort of a reverse engineering idea, but what if you had an autocross class for B Spec/Sundae Cup cars? Would that allow some of the desired crossover? (And a rallycross class, too, of course.)
In reply to David S. Wallens :
Seems like that'd have a lot of benefits. Could help create a "pipeline" into Bspec from autocross, and let people "build over time" (i.e. a little bit each paycheck, similar to the approach mazdeuce used for the traccord) into Bspec/SundaeClub (GridLife's SundaeCup Enduro). And I think getting more crossover between SCCA and GridLife would benefit both organizations, imho.
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
Thanks and I’m not trying to rule out the Fits. I just see a B Spec/Sundae Cup option opening the pool of available cars.
Do we then just need a Street Touring class for these kinds of cars? I know they can run STH, but they’re kinda outgunned.
Just a thought.
David S. Wallens said:
[...]
Do we then just need a Street Touring class for these kinds of cars? I know they can run STH, but they’re kinda outgunned.
[...]
sleepydad was a fan of what he calls "paper computers"... effectively printed spreadsheets. He used them as a combination calculation and flowchart visualization tool.
I referenced earlier in this thread the idea of attempting the feat of rationalizing the Solo and TimeTrials rules along with crossover to the GridLife rules. I feel like your questions begs the creation of a visualization of the SCCA classes at present, the modifications allowed in those classes (power, suspension, aero) in simplified terms, and "the most numerous car in each class". I'm loathe to recommend that SCCA add another class, no matter how much benefit there may be.
I think that this kind of visualization would go a long ways to helping the SCCA figure out where there's duplication of classing, and provide a holistic approach to sunsetting old classes while adding in new classes that are "easy to develop/implement" and cheap enough to re-attract former SCCA members.
absent that; I don't know enough about Solo to have an opinion/insight of where BSpec/SundaeCup cars would "slot into" within the existing structure.
David S. Wallens said:In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
Do we then just need a Street Touring class for these kinds of cars? I know they can run STH, but they’re kinda outgunned.
Just a thought.
That existed briefly in the form of STF. It was terrible and unpopular and went away after a few years.
I made a mistake. I apologize.
I found this site:
https://www.scca-classifier.com/a/index.html
also, interestingly enough, this ~15 year old PDF is pretty prominent in some search results:
https://www.cny-scca.com/solo/SCCA_Classing_Guide.pdf
and then I went and looked up the 2023 SoloNats results:
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/064/048/Official_Class_Results_w_Protest___Appeal.pdf?1664316384
are there any "OCR'd" version of those results? or previous years' results?
to bubble this back up as they recently posted the club spec information up to the top.
Why doesn't SCCA partner with Caterham and offer something like the Caterham Academy package for the US? $38k pounds includes a car which weighs very little and is very easy on consumables and the car control clinic + race license clinic + a bunch of other things... Caterhams can be made street legal in the US and if SCCA adds in a car control clinic and racing school. The car would be fun in almost everything that SCCA does (not sure about rally cross) and includes a full cage for door to door racing.
time for some bench racing. SCCA announced the two makes for the initial club spec series. The NC Miata and S197 mustangs.
MUSTANG
The Mustang for Club Spec is the fifth generation with the 4.6L V-8. Known best by the chassis code S197, these cars were sold in the US from 2005 until 2009 and will carry the class letters CSM.
MIATA
The MX-5 for Club Spec is the third generation, known best by the chassis code NC. These cars were sold in the US from 2006 until 2015 and will carry the class letters CSX.
Both cars appear to have similar budgets to get started, both cars are available in the $10k to $15k range and both will need ~$10k worth of stuff added to get ready for the class. The miata will likely have much lower running costs if you want
The mustang setup sounds like it will set you back between $23k to $28k including the car.
i did some back of the napkin math and I "think" a S197 mustang is readily available for around $15k and cheaper ones are probably available for $10k. I'm thinking a 18 year old mustang will likely have some deferred maintenance equaling $1000 to $1500. I added up all of the parts on Strano's site listed in the part list and its just over $5k add another $2500 for wheel/tire package and another $2000~$3000 for safety stuff (seats, harnesses, bolt in cage, etc.) and then another $1000 for reliability mods (oil cooler, larger radiator, etc.) means your into the class for around $23k.
The miata is probably pretty similar, the mazda motorsports kit for the suspension is listed as $4300, add some stainless steel brake lines, roll bar, seats, harnesses, reliablity mods etc and you're probably still at $10k worth of pieces and parts to get started.
What does everybody think?
What does everybody think?
What do I think?
Well I think once again the folks at SCCA need to get and mingle with more local competitors. In my 34 years with SCCA they constantly convince me they are devoid of understanding about how the local scene works.
While not expensive the rule set is such that is also not a budget class.
Why not a basic shock, larger bars and a cat back style exhaust?
The class will not be cheap after a couple of seasons. Regardless it will probably do well.
Tom1200 said:What does everybody think?
What do I think?
Well I think once again the folks at SCCA need to get and mingle with more local competitors. In my 34 years with SCCA they constantly convince me they are devoid of understanding about how the local scene works.
While not expensive the rule set is such that is also not a budget class.
Why not a basic shock, larger bars and a cat back style exhaust?
The class will not be cheap after a couple of seasons. Regardless it will probably do well.
I don't think the idea is to be the "cheapest". It's just an all around car that can compete in multiple classes/styles of driving (autocross, track, and eventually club racing).
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
I understand the intent and love the concept but it could have been done at half the cost.
Tom1200 said:In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
I understand the intent and love the concept but it could have been done at half the cost.
The only thing I can see is the shocks but that's pretty much what the new Spec MX5 cars have to run so there's not much choice there.
Tom1200 said:Well I think once again the folks at SCCA need to get and mingle with more local competitors. In my 34 years with SCCA they constantly convince me they are devoid of understanding about how the local scene works.
The thing is that the local scene does not really need the SCCA to fix the classing rules for them. If they find rules that don't work they just toss them out and create local classes that do what they need. Our region had a street tire version of Stock long before the conversion to Street came about, for example. Local-only rules work much better for local-only competitors because the local club can be much more responsive to their needs than the national org's bureaucracy can.
National-level rules are really only needed for competitors who are going to national-level events, so it makes sense for the national org to prioritize those competitors.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:National-level rules are really only needed for competitors who are going to national-level events, so it makes sense for the national org to prioritize those competitors.
This is the part I can't reconcile; most National level drivers I know aren't looking to do multi disciplines......Perhaps a lot of them are looking to do this.....don't know.
Tom1200 said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:National-level rules are really only needed for competitors who are going to national-level events, so it makes sense for the national org to prioritize those competitors.
This is the part I can't reconcile; most National level drivers I know aren't looking to do multi disciplines......Perhaps a lot of them are looking to do this.....don't know.
Not a national competitor right now, but I do wish I didn't need 3-4 different cars to try out all the stuff I want to at the risk of not being competitive. (Autocross, Time Trials, Hill Climb). I did club racing and autocross with two different vehicles and I know I'd need something completely different for hill climbs.
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
Eh, a BRZ could do all of that
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