anti-sub belts...

my last autoX of the season was today, and I recently installed a full Willan's 6 point from Flyin' Miata (4 point + optional anti-sub belt kit), and at some point today, my legs/gentleman's region started to disagree with the way that anti-sub belt is made. the belts were WAY WAY too far apart at the buckle and the buckle was basically resting on the femoral artery and had a bit more pressure on that region than I would prefer. I know that Willans makes a V-type 6 point anti-sub belt, which just runs one belt through the anti-sub strap clip that clips into the cam-lock but attaches each end of that belt to a different point on the body of the car, but I have found exactly two places selling it, both of which are located in the UK and don't specify whether or not they will ship to the US. is there anywhere in the US selling the V-type anti-sub strap, or do enough people buying that harness not want to have kids or be able to walk without waddling that there's no market for it over here? or is mine just severely maladjusted?

EDIT: turns out Hard Dog Fab/Bethania Garage Inc. carry the V-type. it still begs the question though, what is the benefit of the t-type versus the v-type anti-sub belts?

Well, it's been awhile for me, but I'm wondering about having the buckle over the femoral. I'm wondering about adjustment, and mounting for the sub straps. I had the lap belt over the top of the hip bones, the buckle ended up pretty much right over my navel. The sub straps were mounted to make just enough of an angle to avoid the family starter, and didn't really bother my inside thighs at all.

EDIT: I can't read for context. Mine was a V-type from the beginning. I've never used the T-type strap.

Where did you mount the sub straps?

Mine fit pretty much like FriedGreen's do. Sparco makes a V-Type set. The camlock is attached to the two submarine straps which is pretty nice. I have never had a problem with my sub-belts. I had the dual sub-belt in the FV, so it may not relate. I have a single sub-belt in the Honda that mounts to the car further from the seat, so my junk doesn't feel it....that might be your solution

Steven

Woody wrote: Where did you mount the sub straps?

IIRC, about half-way between the seat mount and the place where the floor flattens out past the firewall (VW Golf A1). We thought that mounting right in front of the seat would be very uncomfortable (wide over "the package", but cutting off circulation for the legs), and mounting right behind the firewall would make the belt so long that it would stretch too much to keep us from submarining under the dash. We tried to "split the difference". I'm sure that we looked at the SCCA GCR (early 90s version) page with all the drawings about belt angles & legal mounting points when we built it.

EDIT: Steven, this was an IT car..I think the rules for Formula cars were different, even back then.

Comparatively, my belts in the Honda sound like the mount where Friedgreens do in his VW. Make sure they extend from the seat, but they shouldn't go further than maybe 2ft, otherwise they'll be a pain entering and exiting the car. The sub belts should fit snug, but not put too much pressure on your region.They're comfortable and I only really feel them when i brake really hard, which means when i hit something, they'll stop me from sliding forward/down.

FGC: I had the belts in last year in the FV. Also with formula cars, there isn't a whole lot of rules as long as they're there and up to date.

I have to admit, I'd never seen the T-type belt buckle until Slyp mentioned it. I went looking for a pic after he made his first post (and sobered up enough to realize that there were different ways of threading the sub strap in the first place.. ), and found this:

Man, that T looks painful. Not to the family jewels, but to the inside of the legs. As Slyp mentioned, the blood supply to the feet is in there. Personally, I like my feet. They help me shift properly, adjust throttle position for the available grip, and threshold brake. IMHO, blood starvation ("tingling") down there is bad.

IMO, a T-buckle might be a nice way to combine the shoulder straps up top..(you'd have to mount the camlock upside down to get away with it) but as a buckle for the bottom, that thing reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition.

V-belt, V-belt, V-belt. If you screw up the mounting points on the chassis, wear a cup. Don't know where you'd find a flameproof/meltproof one, though..

I've got the anti-sub belts mounted to the bulkhead directly behind the seat (the one you have to drill into to mount the roll bar), and I already have the V-type on order from Hard Dog Fab. and yes, the T is VERY uncomfortable, even when you're not wearing it and just sitting on it due to the way the buckle angles up at the sides. you would almost have to adjust the belts so the cam-lock was at the bottom of your ribcage to get the anti-sub belts and buckle to not crowd certain areas or cut off blood flow to your legs, and somehow I doubt that would help the effectiveness of the lap belts.

this may not help your belt issue, but ive been looking at these for a while for the next time i need a 5+ pt harness.
Schroth's 'hybrid' sub-strap system doesnt use a metal connection and would i would imagine would conform to your lower region more comfortably. at least thats what they say. http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth-competition-belts/hybrid/hybrid-ii

Are those sub straps supposed to go through the center hole in a racing seat, or out in front of the seat itself?

I'm using the Schroth Profi II-6 HANS on both sides of the M3 - Both seats are Cobra Suzuka Pros which have 5 belt-exit apertures which are placed about perfectly for my shape which helps.

I find no issues with comfort provided I...ummm..."adjust" things so when I cinch the belts tight I'm not inducing a either a wedgie or un-descending my nads. They're more comfortable wearing a drivers suit over (not padded) bicycle type shorts.

The Schroth Profi II has a 2" lap belt which according to their literature seats better on the pelvis to mitigate movement during a deceleration event. The Shoulder belts are 3" and taper to 2" for more positive retention of a HANS device.

Regarding anti-sub strap positioning - They should exit the seat at or slightly ahead of the wearers junk. I had a student in a 2007 Shelby Cobra w/ stock seats, a weld in roll bar and 5 point harnesses. The anti-sub strap was routed around the front of the very generous bottom/front seat bolster, so it did precisely nothing.

Fortunately they were a little fast in the slow parts but REALLY slow in the fast parts, so even a mid-corner lift probably wouldn't initiate a full-on code brown harness tryout.

Woody wrote: Are those sub straps supposed to go through the center hole in a racing seat, or out in front of the seat itself?

through the seat hole.

Return the belts you have and get some Sparco ones, or some simular. Look at any of these Belts. Most belts do not have the T-Type design, so pretty much whatever you get will be more comfortable than what you have.

Steven

too late, my V-type anti-subs are already here (very quick shipping, hell I just ordered them sunday night) so I'm going to just run with what I have now

WilberM3 wrote:

Woody wrote: Are those sub straps supposed to go through the center hole in a racing seat, or out in front of the seat itself?

through the seat hole.

I always get confused by this photo (sorry, Keith):

Slyp_Dawg wrote: too late, my V-type anti-subs are already here (very quick shipping, hell I just ordered them sunday night) so I'm going to just run with what I have now

I guess I forgot to ask what seat you're using..especially after you mentioned the sub strap mounts were behind the seat. Please recall that when I'm talking about my car, I'm talking about a car built during the early days of Improved Touring (at the time, the class was considered a place for old Showroom Stock cars to go and die..the belt rules were written to keep your butt in place on a stock seat!), and that even a lot of the race seats back then didn't have the surround (and the belt holes) that they do now.

nah, I'm using stock NA miata seats with headrest speakers, running the anti-sub belts through the crack between the seat back and the seat cushion so that I'm sitting on the anti-sub belts. not the ideal setup, but I didn't feel like cutting a hole in the seat and running the belts ahead of the seat isn't effective at all