Any chance weight/interior bits can be removed in SCCA Street Touring if a roll bar/cage is added?

So, the way I read the SCCA Solo Street Touring autocross rules, it doesn't look like there's any allowances for weight removal if a roll bar/cage is installed. 

I'm building a CRX to run both STS as well as SCCA Time Trials Tuner 5. In SCCA Time Trials, the rules are pretty clear: 

"C. To facilitate safety, vehicles that have an added roll bar (4-points) may remove carpet, seats and trim (including convertible tops) behind the front seats. Vehicles that have an added roll cage (6-points) may remove carpet, seats and trim (including convertible tops) other than the dash."

I know that Solo Street Touring and Time Trials Tuner rules are nearly identical in many regards, hence me prepping the car to do both. I'm considering putting in a roll bar or cage in the CRX. Under TT Tuner rules, I can remove some weight from the car to make up for the additional weight of the bar/cage... but I don't see any such accommodation in Street Touring. I would hate to add ~50 lbs to a car with only 105bhp on tap for autocross... anything I'm missing? 

Yeah unfortunately there's no stated guarantee of crossover for Solo and TT rules, except for a few notable exceptions (Like the SSC twins). But even where those classes are guaranteed, it's one driection only. In other words, a legal Solo SSC twin can run Sport 6, but no TT class cars are guaranteed slots in Solo.

So, long story short, you can't remove panels to facilitate roll bar installation in ST. HOWEVER, there's precedent for allowing it if you minimally modify the panel to allow installation of optional safely gear. So in other words, if you trim the panel around the bar to allow for installation there's likely no steward or fellow competitor who would file a good-faith protest against it.

As someone that plans to install a roll bar this year for Time Trials  and continued use in STR, I unfortunately agree that I do not see provisions for removal of weight (to offset gain) for a roll bar or cage.  A small saving grace for me is that I will get to remove the existing roll structure so the net gain is closer to 30 lbs (offset by a lighter battery and no muffler).

JG Pasterjak said:

Yeah unfortunately there's no stated guarantee of crossover for Solo and TT rules, except for a few notable exceptions (Like the SSC twins). But even where those classes are guaranteed, it's one driection only. In other words, a legal Solo SSC twin can run Sport 6, but no TT class cars are guaranteed slots in Solo.

So, long story short, you can't remove panels to facilitate roll bar installation in ST. HOWEVER, there's precedent for allowing it if you minimally modify the panel to allow installation of optional safely gear. So in other words, if you trim the panel around the bar to allow for installation there's likely no steward or fellow competitor who would file a good-faith protest against it.

That's what I figured. I noticed that in recent years Solo rules have changed to seemingly allow for things in Street/Street Touring that were prohibited, such as bigger radiators and oil coolers, that seemingly wouldn't help in Solo, but were beneficial from a reliability standpoint in TT. I might write the SCCA a letter and see if they would be willing to make a rule alteration to attract greater crossover into the 2 sports. Thank you, sir! 

I'm not trying to be a wet blank but unless you are planning on being at the very pointy end of the Solo II National Championships 50lbs isn't going to matter at autocross.

I suspect that given you are running dual events with the car winning at Lincoln isn't the priority (correct me if I'm wrong)

I joke about having Chapman's disease (obsessed with every last pound) but when it comes to the track car safety I immediately throw that out the window. The cage in my Datsun is solidly 30lbs more than it could be (it's built to rally spec). In my 1650lb car 25lbs represents 1hp, which equates to about .05 seconds on my home track of 3.4 miles.

By all means write the SCCA (can't hurt) but frankly I wouldn't worry about it. I suspect they will say no.

JG Pasterjak said:

Yeah unfortunately there's no stated guarantee of crossover for Solo and TT rules, except for a few notable exceptions (Like the SSC twins). But even where those classes are guaranteed, it's one driection only. In other words, a legal Solo SSC twin can run Sport 6, but no TT class cars are guaranteed slots in Solo.

So, long story short, you can't remove panels to facilitate roll bar installation in ST. HOWEVER, there's precedent for allowing it if you minimally modify the panel to allow installation of optional safely gear. So in other words, if you trim the panel around the bar to allow for installation there's likely no steward or fellow competitor who would file a good-faith protest against it.

Current wording.. which i thought had a more amicable tone... and I couldn't remember why..

Had to go digging in Fastrack.... there was a proposal last year to update the rules on roll bars.



So there is definitely a movement to allow people to increase safety on track without having to eat E36 M3 classing wise for solo.
 

Tom1200 said:

I'm not trying to be a wet blank but unless you are planning on being at the very pointy end of the Solo II National Championships 50lbs isn't going to matter at autocross.

I suspect that given you are running dual events with the car winning at Lincoln isn't the priority (correct me if I'm wrong)

I joke about having Chapman's disease (obsessed with every last pound) but when it comes to the track car safety I immediately throw that out the window. The cage in my Datsun is solidly 30lbs more than it could be (it's built to rally spec). In my 1650lb car 25lbs represents 1hp, which equates to about .05 seconds on my home track of 3.4 miles.

By all means write the SCCA (can't hurt) but frankly I wouldn't worry about it. I suspect they will say no.

I'm not at the pointy end of Solo II. I feel like I can pull out a regional win this year, but you are correct, I am certainly not going to win at Nats in the near future. 

With that said, if a rule can be made to reduce a potential weight penalty in the name of safety, I'm all for it. 

I wrote the SCCA yesterday inquiring about a potential rule change, to which I received a response saying: "...we on the SEB as well as the Street Advisory Committee are working on a potential rule change allowing a little more freedom to facilitate roll bar installations. Look for an update in an upcoming Fastrack release in the next couple of months for more details."

So, as it turns out, the SCCA is working on some sort of mitigation, which is pretty cool to see! 

Back in the day, the SCCA permitted Showroom Stock cars (road racing) in Stock classes (autocross) provided that the conversion was thorough, meaning that if you ran the Showroom Stock roll cage, you also had to follow the Showroom Stock tire rules. You couldn't pick from each rule book, but it allowed cars to move between both arenas.

Today we have this rule for Improved Touring cars in Street Prepared: