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docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/1/15 10:58 a.m.

I'm going to be checking out two vintage Jaguars soon, a '70 E type coupe and an early XJ6. Apparently they haven't moved in 5-6 years, but were restored and operational before that time.

I need to know what to look for, where to search for rust, where the engine/tranny numbers are so I can confirm matching #'s, other important bits so I can determine whether or not I want to take on the challenge of these.

I'm much more of a German car guy, so while I can evaluate cosmetics, I don't really know enough about English iron to know what to look for...

Any help appreciated!

sergio
sergio Reader
11/1/15 12:17 p.m.

If there are any they're in the garage working on their Jags. My dad has a 71 V12 sitting in his garage for 25years waiting for me to get it running again....oh joy.

Jumper K. Balls
Jumper K. Balls UberDork
11/1/15 2:39 p.m.

On the E there will be a big data plate under the hood on the passenger side. There is a box on the firewall and it is on top of that. Right out in plain sight

The engines are stamped on the block above where the oil filter mounts.

At least that is where they are on the three E's we have here but they are all early cars.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/2/15 8:51 a.m.

Are the transmissions stamped anywhere? Anything I should be looking for in particular? I know the clutch on an E Type is an engine out job, I plan on seeing if that has any action to it. I'm also going to bring a battery with me to hook up and see if anything has life...

Harvey
Harvey Dork
11/2/15 9:24 a.m.

Any masochists here?

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/2/15 9:27 a.m.

Well, I hope to limit the damage. My plan is to get them fired up and running then immediately flip them for sale.

Like I said, I'm much more into german cars and while these are lovely to look at I'd rather use the money towards a 911.

NOHOME
NOHOME UberDork
11/2/15 10:05 a.m.

I could almost care less if an E-type actually ran. Mechanical is child's play compared to the potential tub pitfalls. You will want the car up on axle stands to do the inspection.

Unless you can be sure that the paint is original, you need to divine what is under the paint. The sill structures are everything on a jag. A borescope would not be going to far when doing this inspection. The good news is that body-men are lazy. Shoddy body-men even more so. Look for the transition areas where one piece of the tub meets another; places where it would be time consuming and physically uncomfortable to do the detail work if you were doing a filler-job on the car. Low on the sills as they disappear under the car is a good area. Same at the rear valence. You are looking for areas where filler has not been fully sanded to blend in with the metal.

Even if you don't find the obvious, be aware there are some Bondo artist and don't let your guard down.

Assuming it has had some rust repair, some of the welds must be visible. Seek them out as a clue to how well the work was done. Are they bird poop and ground or half decent puddle welds? If the weld seam has been plastered in seam sealer, then you might want to know why?

How does the bonnet fit? Not worth continuing your existence if the fit is off and you have to sort that. I'm sure Hemlock potions was a British Leyland accessory for dealing with this.

Warm it up and run the heater. If you see any drips in the cabin coming form up around the firewall, be aware that pretty much the whole car has to come apart to replace a tube that runs across the firewall. Back in the day before they became icons, people used to scrap the cars for just this reason once they got the quote to repair. Not sure how you test if the car wont run: Pressure test maybe?

Look for where the torsion bars tie into the chassis, this needs to be in perfect shape.

One that people messed up when the car was new was mounting stuff to the engine truss. The metal is very thin and the act of drilling any holes in them compromised the delicate engineering that went into them. So go armed with some pictures and look for extra holes.

Interiors are expensive to restore, so be critical.

Mechanical I assume you can asses on your own. A leak-down and compression test is the tell-all for me. They are fairly tough engines and the later boxes are not bad. The carbs are British, expecting them to work is delusional but not really a big deal to sort other than a nuisance factor. Exhaust get a bit spendy. Like all Brits they overheat if the system is no in perfect condition.

If you are just looking for the restoration challenge of a lifetime, your own personal Mount Everest to climb, then ignore all of the above and just buy whatever is there for as cheap as you can get it. Sort it on the fly.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill PowerDork
11/2/15 10:19 a.m.

The 70 is not one of the lusted after covered headlight cars. And if its a 2+2 it really isn't very desirable at all. If you can get it cheap, cheap, flip it.

As far as the Xj-6s, go, the later models are the better ones as far as build quality goes. Some of the early models may have some collectability.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/2/15 10:22 a.m.

Is the Hagerty price guide fairly accurate on these? I may be able to get both for short cash (like $5k for both) my plan is to flip them, asking a decent amount less than the Hagerty guide for whatever condition they're in to hopefully get a quick sale...

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Dork
11/2/15 10:44 a.m.

The XJ6 fuel tanks rust badly internally. They're in the rear fenders and if the caps get any tree leaves, gunk, etc around them, the drains back up and water ends up in the tanks. If someone tried to drive it like that, the whole fuel system is pretty much going to be toast. Replacement tanks are available, and probably well worth it if there are any issues with the originals.

Otherwise, all the electrical stuff is suspect (gauges, switches, connectors, etc.), but it's also pretty much all rebuildable if you have the patience.

Jumper K. Balls
Jumper K. Balls UberDork
11/2/15 3:34 p.m.

Keep in mind that a brake job on the Dunlop system for the E can easily get north of $1500.

British car, and particularly E-type people are ridiculous about originality. The sight of a standard grade 5 bolt head in the engine bay will make them twitch. Rebuilding the brake system for sale to a classic Jag buyer will involve sending all the caliper halves, master and booster cylinders to be resleeved, bored and zinc plated.

Yes lower cost caliper pistons and cylinders can be bought new but I have yet to see a single customer not replace them immediately. I guess I am trying to say a functioning aftermarket brake system is usually considered a negative and will be a point of bargaining vs non functioning OE crap.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/2/15 3:47 p.m.

Man you guys aren't giving me a warm fuzzy feeling about the flip potential of these! The PITA factor may far outweigh the monetary gain ...

spitfirebill
spitfirebill PowerDork
11/2/15 3:59 p.m.

I'm pretty bummed too. I've always wanted an E-type.

Jumper K. Balls
Jumper K. Balls UberDork
11/2/15 4:19 p.m.

We have four E's in the shop right now.

They are complicated and expensive cars to build correctly.

 photo 20151102_140620_zpsolel2mnf.jpg

This diagram doesn't even cover all the shims and spacers involved in the rear end. All of the car is built like that. I think they hail from a time when excess complication was seen as a sign of "quality"

I actually don't like driving them either. Not sure if trucklike is the correct description, but not at all sports car like. 50's Healeys are much nicer and more entertaining to drive. An MGB will give you most of the experience (minus the thrust and exhaust note) for a lot less money. I think this is why I only view them as investments, so my concerns would be squeaking out every possible dollar.

And yes a series two or three 2+2 car is very hard to sell. Most folks just consider them parts cars or interesting drivers.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/2/15 4:50 p.m.

A 1970 is considered a series 1.5 right? So it should have the 4.2 6 cylinder. I'm not sure if its a 2+2 or not.

A friend offered to pay me more than I buy them for and he'll then play with them. I may just do that. Not as much upside but basically no risk. I'm trying to get him to trade me his '99 996 C2 straight across for both the Jags.

Woody
Woody MegaDork
11/2/15 4:57 p.m.

In reply to Jumper K. Balls:

When I was a kid, I thought these cars were ugly. I think that I based that opinion solely on the fact that I watched the movie Silver Streak a bunch of times ("I left my Jag in Kansas City...").

Sure enough, that car was a Series 1.5 2+2.

I'd love to own a Series 1 coupe now.

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera HalfDork
11/2/15 8:28 p.m.

Did they make both the Coupe and the 2+2 in '70 or was the 2+2 the replacement/mistake.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/3/15 8:47 a.m.

Well I may have worked out a trade with my friend, these two Jags in their current condition for his 99 996 C2. Need to go check out the Jags and see how much the owner wants for them, take a bunch of pics then see if my friend is serious about trading me for his 996.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/7/15 12:00 p.m.

Ok, checked them out this morning. There's a XJ12L sedan that's in somewhat rough shape. (Lots of dash cracks, paint in so so condition, interior ok, no rust, not running) This car running isn't worth a whole lot, like maybe $4000 or so.

A 1953 Mk7 Sedan that's currently taken apart and boxes and boxes of parts. Not sure what's there and what isn't there, drivetrain is removed from it. This is something I'd try to sell whole as a project to a collector for whatever I could get for it. These seem to be worth $20k in running condition.

Finally a 1970 Series 1.5 E type coupe, MT. No rust, decent paint and chrome, broken side view mirror glass, interior in good shape. Rolls but hasn't been run in 10 years. Gas seems funky. There is oil in the sump and on the dipstick, bottom of oil filler cap is clean. Odo shows 69k miles. It does roll, so brakes aren't seized.

The E type is probably a condition 3 car if it was running. Paint/interior are good for a daily driver but aren't up to concours standards, there are some paint chips etc.

I talked with the owner, she really has no idea what she wants for them. I went through all of it with her, told her what I'd be willing to pay and would take them all away. She's going to talk to our mutual friend then get back to me.

She's not all that interested in getting them towed and spending the money to get them running, although she understands that's how she could maximize her investment. She understands the risk I'd be taking buying them as is and knows that affects the price...

I plan on touching base with her in a week if I don't hear from her...

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
11/7/15 12:16 p.m.

In reply to docwyte: The E type might fetch around $15,000 to $30,000 if a coupe as described when up and running.. if a 2+2 about 1/2 that number..

The V12L $300-$600 sounds like a parts car and scrap metal is in the toilet right now..

The Mk7 is so expensive to restore that you will really need to find someone who wants it to get any sort of decent offer.. An XK120 in that state would easily fetch $75,000+ because with about $60,000 worth of parts and labor he'll have something that could sell for well north of $150,000 The restoration bill on a Mk7 could be near $100,000 and it will sell in freshly restored state maybe $30,000 if done to perfection..

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/7/15 12:22 p.m.

Yeah, I was really hoping that the MK7 would be an XK120 but no such luck. I made her what I felt was a fair offer for all three, telling her the only one I really wanted was the E type, but I'd empty the barn of cars for her if she wanted.

At that point I'd dump the other two Jags and hopefully get something for them to fund the E type a little.

I figure the E type running is probably a $25k car plus or minus...

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
11/7/15 12:32 p.m.

The V12L with a rust free body might find a buyer for more if running but you can dump so much into one you still wind up upside down.. The Mk 7 in parts with unknown issues could still have value if the engine etc. are there.. people are taking rusty, junk, engineless XK 120's and restoring them so a sedan engine/transmission would fit and look right. Where are you located? I have Jag friends in various places around the country.. maybe one of them would be more interested and make it a simple cash deal?

docwyte
docwyte Dork
11/7/15 12:36 p.m.

The Mk7 drivetrain is there, just not installed in the car. My goal would be to net enough from the Mk7 and the XJ12L that I recoup my funds that I've given, essentially making the E type free...

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
11/7/15 12:54 p.m.

Best bet is to sell the Mk7 drive train on E bay as a 1953 Jaguar 3.4 motor and transmission.. sell the V12L there as a rust free body

Woody
Woody MegaDork
11/7/15 4:08 p.m.

That XKE looks a lot nicer than I had expected.

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